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Old December 22, 2011, 12:06 PM   #26
kraigwy
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Call me old fashion, but I don't think its the fancy equipment, its the street cop, the street cop that takes the time to get out of the car and interacts with the public.

Tasers, pepper spray, 'n such is just an excuse for not using good people skills a good street cop should possess.

Its not the fancy CSI stuff that solves crimes. Its the cop's ability to talk to people and get them to confess. It's a art I fear is disappearing. Gone the way of the "beat cop".
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Old December 22, 2011, 12:07 PM   #27
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I think, given limited resources, it's money mispent.

We have a huge backlog of DNA evidence that has yet to be tested, analyzed and cataloged, because there is a shortage of laboratories and technicians - because it is not being adequately funded.

We could use another 50 labs in this country, as well as better computer systems and better networks to link our various LEAs and the various levels.

But that kind of spending is dull, boring, doesn't make police unions or police officers themselves all that happy. Whereas many of the beneficiaries of the weapons systems type of spending find the whole process rather fun and exciting.
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Old December 22, 2011, 12:22 PM   #28
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equip their police as though they are going to war; but with whom?
With us Citizens, silly. Where have you been? J/K.

It was a fundamental precept of this country to have no standing army. They're totally militarized now and it is an act of aggression unless they want to play with word definitions like Slick Willie did. It's no secret either. You can turn on the tube and watch Cops pillage and plunder the Citizenry for minor offenses 7 days a week with Cable TV.
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Old December 22, 2011, 02:02 PM   #29
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Its not the fancy CSI stuff that solves crimes. Its the cop's ability to talk to people and get them to confess. It's a art I fear is disappearing. Gone the way of the "beat cop".
I dunno... Maybe in Alaska or Wyoming, but not around here (Indiana).

Pretty much every case that comes across my desk where the fellow wasn't caught in a bad-looking situation was taken to the courts by way of some very crafty questioning. And I'm not talking about yelling at them until they say something stupid or ask for a lawyer, either. There are some very sophisticated techniques being practiced not only by the detectives, but by lowly patrolmen as well.

It makes my job harder as a defense attorney, but I can't help but admire their tradecraft.
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Old December 22, 2011, 03:24 PM   #30
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If i tilt my tinfoil hat just right, i am reminded that i would MUCH prefer that the local constabulary be overly well-armed and dressed like stormtroopers to having a larger federal "police" presence. When the rubber hits the road, i believe the local boys will remember who their neighbors/employers are. (tinfoil hat off)

That said, i do miss the days of the smartly dressed police officer in an almost "suit-like" uniform that brought forth emotions of admiration and maybe a little awe or envy, rather than fear or trepidation seen today, in the children of my early childhood and grade school classes on those occasions when such paths crossed (most often for a school presentation by the officer). I can remember selling Christmas trees for a local charity on the same shift as the local Police Chief (now a judge) and being impressed with how nice his DRESS uniform looked and the way the customers looked at it. When i left Memphis last, the sight of a person clad in all black with a ski mask and a helmet was not an indicator of an impending comic book convention of GI JOE fans imitating one of their favorite characters, it was just one of the officers from the Gang Unit (a much needed force in Memphis, no doubt).
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Old December 22, 2011, 03:47 PM   #31
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OK but where do these policemen come from? Are they from some foreign country brought in to terrorize and control the inhabitants? Or are they the children of your neighbors?

I do like the idea of bringing back a proper policeman's uniform but that ain't gonna happen. I work in an office, wear a tie but I haven't worn a suit in years. Overseas, I understand there is a movement for all policemen everywhere to dress more or less the same in blue uniforms.
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Old December 22, 2011, 03:50 PM   #32
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Garbage

Municipal/county/state police are not "militarizing" in any sense. There is no provision to "federalize" them like the state national guard. Even under the Patriot Act or other legislation. In the practical sense, the infra-structure and logistical problems alone prevent it for now. Hell the DoD refuse to even give their civilian cops ANY statutory arrest authority at all, and MP's are restricted by posse comitatus
Has a significant pile of Homeland Security grant $$$ been thrown at the states in the last decade? Absolutely. Is that indictative of our civilian police forces being molded into a single par-military entity...Ah NO!!!!!!!
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Old December 22, 2011, 03:59 PM   #33
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mpd61, I think you are confusing "militarized" with "nationalized" or "federalized."

Military style uniforms, military grade equipment, and military assault tactics (IE most things SWAT), when increased in amount and rate of use, could very justifiably be described as "militarized."

The gear isn't the issue, though - it's the mindset that often seems to accompany it. "Hey, we've got this SWAT team..."
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Old December 22, 2011, 04:31 PM   #34
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It's not their equipment I object to,,,

In fact I believe they should have whatever they need to catch the bad guys,,,

It's the militarization of their general attitudes I strongly object to.

<RANT>

When the cops start acting like every citizen is someone they need to put into submission so they can do their jobs,,,
They need to redefine exactly what their job actually consists of.

I'm also tired of law enforcement referring to me as a civilian,,,
I'm a citizen dag-nabbit and they must never forget that I'm why their job exists!

Too many police officers have adopted the attitude of,,,
Arrest them all, let the courts sort out the innocents,,,
They have forgotten we are the ones they swore to,,,
"Serve and Protect".

This is the militarization people are not willing to accept,,,
It's their para-military attitudes, not their military equipment.

I do believe this type of LEO is still in the minority,,,
But that minority is doing a great job of alienating LEO personnel from the citizenry in general.

</RANT>

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Old December 22, 2011, 04:40 PM   #35
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When the cops start acting like every citizen is someone they need to put into submission so they can do their jobs,,,
... which is precisely why I resist offering information such as my CWL or the presence of a loaded firearm in my car unless required to by law. Even if most cops are civil, I don't want to meet the odd nutjob who thinks it necessary to lay me out on the pavement and search my car.
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Old December 22, 2011, 04:46 PM   #36
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The State's legit military force is called the National Guard, and that is where it should stay. If military equipment is actually needed by the police, a local force can ask the Gov for NG assistance, and if for a legit reason, it would be provided.
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Old December 22, 2011, 05:31 PM   #37
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I wear BDU's every day, because I am a truck inspector on top of a patrol trooper. I don't really care what I wear, but the "fancy" gray uniforms we wear are very expensive and it's impossible to get oil and grease out of them.

I believe 9 times out of 10, it's a money issue, BDU's are cheap.
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Old December 22, 2011, 06:28 PM   #38
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Threads merged.
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Old December 22, 2011, 06:39 PM   #39
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Hell the DoD refuse to even give their civilian cops ANY statutory arrest authority at all....
I don't know where you got this strange idea from but it is incorrect.

On nearly all military installations the civilian police force have arrest powers. On Ft. Bliss they even salute each other:

https://www.bliss.army.mil/ProvostMa...dQuestions.htm
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Old December 22, 2011, 09:18 PM   #40
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No, people are no worse than they ever were. You could be accused at looking at the past through rose-colored glasses, you know. Drugs and violence are no more acceptable now than they were during prohibition. The culture of our nation has changed, of course, because it is always changing. If you want to send the Mexicans back to Mexico and the nice people from Peru back to the mountains where then came from, then you might want to think about sending the Italians back to Italy, the Greeks back to Greece, and the Irish back to Ireland. But I think we ought to keep the Germans.
Im not going to touch the politics of it.... I will leave it at illegal is illegal no matter what the crime, be it jay walking or murder or anywhere in between. Culture changes I would point to I personally consider to be mostly product of mass media... It seems what you see on tv becomes acceptable in the eyes of the youth even if it is not in actuality acceptable to the masses.

When I was a kid if I was bad at my neighbors I got a swat there and sent home and then I got a swat from my mom when I got home and then when dad got home I got a swat yet again.....

Try that today and you go to prison... Right or wrong what the mass media promotes more often than not seems to become reality for all the wrong reasons...
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Old December 23, 2011, 05:47 AM   #41
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I'll reiterate some of the views already expressed. The fancy equipment doesn't bother me at all (although sometimes it seems like a taser is just an excuse for lazy police work). It's all the guys that join the department so they can be on the SWAT team, and have a full-time job of kicking ass and taking names. But then they end up on regular patrol doing menial things like talking to citizens and filling out reports. Maybe even enforcing a law every now and then. Unfortunately, sometimes they find other outlets for their testosterone.

It seems this is how the public increasingly perceives police, and I think it may be driving away some of the good guys.

On another note, it's a shame to see all these resources devoted to militarizing the police for something that may never happen when you consider all the real and present problems we have.
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Old December 23, 2011, 08:12 AM   #42
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You should realize the culture was changing even without the assistance of television and even newspapers. It started changing as soon as people began arriving here from the old country, be it England, Ireland, the Netherlands, Spain or France. Eventually, to begin with, they stopped being English, Irish, Dutch, etc., etc. It can't be stopped, though you may not perceive it happening. The people are growing in new soil and a new kind of person emerges. But I agree it has been downhill since 1965--or is that 1910?

I saw a few rather serious arguments when I was small that originated with people attempting to discipline their neighbor's children. But regarding the police, militarized or not, they are perceived quite differently in different places. I suspect that in places where they actually are your neighbors, they are seen as part of the community. In places where more of them live over in the next country or outside of the city, it might be a little more difficult to have those good community relations that are so important to successful police work. Without the general support of the community, the police are bound to fail, and that doesn't even touch on bad things the police themselves (as individuals) might do, which we won't discuss.

Now, regarding the mass media, it is just as likely to be right-wing as it is to be left-wing. If you don't think so, then turn on your radio.
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Old December 23, 2011, 09:04 AM   #43
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it is just as likely to be right-wing as it is to be left-wing. If you don't think so, then turn on your radio.
Although I concur that changes are ongoing I do believe we see things in our society that would not have existed or not have existed to the extent they do without mass media involvement.

As far as right or left though most media seems to have a strong left slant... Or maybe I have all the wrong channels...

No certainly our police shouldnt be ready for military action against the general population but in reality I think its more likely that its big boys given money and permission to play with toys.. not alot more....
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Old December 23, 2011, 09:32 AM   #44
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Please cite the laws you mention.
The phrase "I seem to recall" should give you a clue I was unsure of this.
If I had U.S. Code at that time to site, I would have done so in the post.
However, 10 USC, Subtitle A, Part II, Chapter 45, Sections 771 and 772 may be a starting point.
As exceptions can be made under Section 772, there may be one I can't find in place.

I'm sorry if my post was confusing.
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Old December 23, 2011, 11:07 AM   #45
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I agree with you BGutzman that there is a strong element of mass media involved in movements but that has been true for a long time. Newspapers used to be considered a mass media. In fact, I wonder how much the actual presence of a camera creates an event. It becomes a "happening," to use a word from the late 1960s. As far as the radio is concerned, just tune across the dial until you hear someone shouting.

Does anyone think maybe that the present situation (as far as the situation is actually what we think it is) may be what we wanted and got? I recall is a college class on either juvenille deliquency (what an old-fashioned term) or criminology someone suggesting that if we just locked up more people, then crime would go down. That's pretty much what happened, you know, yet no one here believes crime went down, no matter what anyone says.

I already mentioned that Nixon ran on a law and order platform. People were upset with the changes in the social order that were happening then. People will vote for law and order over anything.
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Old December 23, 2011, 11:34 AM   #46
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Common sense should rule this issue. My local LE probably doesn't need to spend a million bucks on tactical equipment to handle a few dopeheads and drunks. LAPD or NYPD on the other hand, who might need to stop a gang war, riots, or God forbid, another terrorist attack might need to be allocated some funds. And I am hesitant to sit here and say LEOs should be regulated by limiting equipment. Limiting authority is the way to do that, not by crippling their ability to respond to real threats. My $0.02.
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Old December 23, 2011, 11:51 AM   #47
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Does anyone think maybe that the present situation (as far as the situation is actually what we think it is) may be what we wanted and got? I recall is a college class on either juvenile delinquency (what an old-fashioned term) or criminology someone suggesting that if we just locked up more people, then crime would go down. That's pretty much what happened, you know, yet no one here believes crime went down, no matter what anyone says.
There are a lot of reasons crime has dropped so much, not the least of which is the high rate of incarceration in the US. Aging population, high quality of life, huge government welfare payments. All these lead to a lower crime rate. More education would help too.
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Old December 23, 2011, 11:55 AM   #48
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BT, Nixon ran on law and order, and state's rights. true.

But he also ran against George McGovern (war hero, and apparently a very nice man, but not known for foreign policy, etc) and Edwin Muskie (another good man, in fact a friendly acquaintance of my father's - I met Ed Muskie when I was 8 or 9 - but a man who wasn't ready for the mudslinging of national level politics, and one from a small state to boot).

So you may be oversimplifying just a bit.
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Old December 23, 2011, 12:11 PM   #49
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Of course I'm oversimplifying. That's the way forums are.

Nixon was the first president I voted for, too, and the polling place was just down the hall from the very classroom where I took those criminology classes. Paper ballots, too.
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Old December 23, 2011, 03:30 PM   #50
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Nixon, college, states rights, and law and order?
That'll be "who are Crosby, Stills, Nash, and Young", Alex.
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