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Old December 20, 2011, 08:25 PM   #1
baddarryl
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IDPA. Time vs. Accuracy

Hey All. I shot my 2nd match this Sunday and my over all placing improved by 16.5 % from the first! Anyway what I tried to do was slow down and be more accurate. What is the balance there? At some point too slow costs you no matter how accurate. So concentrate on accuracy and pick up speed or both? etc etc. How do you guys do this? I am out there just for fun, but it is nice to do well too!
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Old December 20, 2011, 08:31 PM   #2
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It's a game. If you want to do well, or win, at a game you do what the winners are doing.
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Old December 20, 2011, 08:34 PM   #3
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No kidding, but I got a long way to go against a lot of those boys!
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Old December 20, 2011, 08:36 PM   #4
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Do you have a place where you can practice draw and shoot, move and shoot, do timed reloads and shoot, etc?

Sometimes the facility where you hold matches is available for such practice.

Practice with dry fire (use snap caps if your manufacturer recommends) and start increasing speed gradually, while working on smoothness.

Find the pace where your form starts to have hiccups. Back it up one notch. Dry fire round to verify the back one notch pace is controlled and smooth. Try same pace live fire.

Repeat as necessary.

I know compglock17 and I already told you about the glass of water trick. Keep your knees slightly bent and your CG low when you move. Watch traditional martial artists or, for that matter, dressage horse riders and see how stable they keep their centers. Try to achieve that type of movement.

And have fun.
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Old December 20, 2011, 10:17 PM   #5
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Its hard to say, and really depends on just HOW fast the person shoots and how bad the shots are vs a perfect run and a set time (the constant).

So if the constant is a down zero run at the average time for the shooter, you would have to do math specific to the course to see how much faster your time between shots would have to be to make up for a down 1 target or even a down 3.

In my experience, i dont shoot fast enough to make up for misses. When I start seeing down 1's my times start to drop. I try to go as quickly as possible obviously, but I personally put more of an emphasis on accuracy.

this is something Ive wondered about myself.
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Old December 21, 2011, 01:18 AM   #6
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My rule of thumb is to keep total time down from PDs within 10% of total. More than this, and you're shooting out of control. A good target range, IMO, is 7-9%.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shotgun693
If you want to do well, or win, at a game you do what the winners are doing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by baddarryl
No kidding, but I got a long way to go against a lot of those boys!
Shotgun's advice is good. You may have a long way to go in terms of speed, but you can use the scores of top shooters to gauge an effective balance of speed and accuracy. Look at the scores of the 5 newly-crowned World Champs, for example. Time added from PDs averaged 9% of total time.
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Old December 21, 2011, 03:13 AM   #7
TheGoldenState
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I've never competed, but obviously you want a 50/50 split, having your cake and eating it too.

I will forever go by the adage drilled into me:

"Slow is smooth and smooth is fast"
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Old December 21, 2011, 08:03 AM   #8
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As it was put to me, you will know your limits as far as speed and accuracy goes. Your match score will tell you if you are shooting to fast/slow by time and points down.
I had a first time shooter in a steel match 2 weeks ago trying to shoot as fast as possible. As the SO I helped him along and had him slow down and low and behold he picked up 3 seconds per string going from 11.93 seconds to 7.69 seconds just by slowing HIS pace down and improving his accuracy not needing make up shots.
As they say slow is smooth, smooth is fast
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Old December 21, 2011, 08:36 AM   #9
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Years ago an IPSC shooter told me "you can't miss fast enough to win" Same holds true for IDPA
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Old December 21, 2011, 10:09 AM   #10
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I shoot these type of matches through out the summer and enjoy the heck out of them but they do seem to stress speed more then accuracy.

Maybe its because subconsciously I think the accuracy should be stressed more because I'm slow or maybe its the old cop in me (cops have to account for missed rounds flying all over the place).

Anyway, I think they should add more time for misses or targets not engaged.

An example, lets say it takes you a certain amount of time to reload. You have two targets left, If you don't shoot the targets you get 5 seconds added. If it takes you 11 seconds to reload, you're better off not engaging the targets and taking the misses.

Same thing with hostage targets, you get 5 seconds added if you hit a hostage, but some stages you can do better time wise if you just spray the area hitting all targets including the hostage.

Here's another one which I actually did. Last year we had a three gun match. In the rifle phase you had to hit three targets with two rounds each. In with the three targets were three hostage targets. I was brain dead when it was my turn and shot all three hostage targets skipping the bandit targets. But because it was a rifle, and I am a rifle shooter, I smoked the stage time wise. Looking at the bulletin, I actually beat some people who took their time and got good solid hits on the bandit targets not hitting the hostages.

But I don't make the rules, I'll just keep shooting and having fun. Keep practicing concentrating on accuracy while increasing my speed.

But I would like to see them all more time for misses and hostage hits.
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Old December 21, 2011, 11:44 AM   #11
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I recently did my first USPSA comp, horrendous results are putting it nicely.

I thought fast was good, ha. When I learned a shot in the "A" area was worth 5 points and a miss was a -10, well, let's just say that my scores were negative for all stages............

Did not have enough "A"s to make-up for the misses, or "good guys" hit.

Next time I will do the course as slow as I need to so I can actually hit ALL the CORRECT targets and forget about the time required. If I am too slow, the guys behind me can play-through like Golf.

I am sooooo glad that I can hit 80+ % in shotgun sports. Handguns just ain't my thing yet.
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Old December 21, 2011, 12:07 PM   #12
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Very cool Darryl, I'm just gearing up for IDPA this next spring. Think I have the gear I need, have found a club that participates (at a reasonable price and not too far from me), just need some nicer weather now. Here's one thing I'm working with, if you're lucky there may be a CO2 pistol in a replica of your gun. I'm planning on at least starting with my 92FS (and hope to stick with it though it's not 100% ideal for IDPA) and am lucky that there are a couple of very good replicas out there including one with a steel frame that feels just like the real deal. The replicas (pellet/BB, not air soft) are the same size and grip feel as the real guns so they are great for practicing the mechanics including firing. Reloads are a little odd as the CO2's have these miniature 'magazines' (they do use magazines though) but for the rest of the motions they are good practice and can be used almost anywhere you have a little space. I expect my little 'farm' up north to have a small IDPA range on it this next spring. I can't go flinging 9mm all over the place but BB & Pellets are fair game.

Quote:
Anyway, I think they should add more time for misses or targets not engaged.
Agreed, I like the rules in IDPA but from what I've seen there's still too much emphasis on speed vs accuracy.
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Old December 21, 2011, 04:51 PM   #13
Don P
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Quote:
An example, lets say it takes you a certain amount of time to reload. You have two targets left, If you don't shoot the targets you get 5 seconds added. If it takes you 11 seconds to reload, you're better off not engaging the targets and taking the misses.
OK, following your thoughts here, 2 targets, 2 round each not getting shot.

4 missed shots = 4 failure to neutralize= +20 seconds added to the raw time, 2 procedurals for not following course of fire, 1 for each target = 6 seconds added to raw time, and as SO I may just add a failure to do right = 20 seconds added to raw time.(unsportsmanlike conduct)
So lets add this up, to save your 11 seconds on a reload it cost you in penalty time 46 seconds. Maybe that reload wasn't a bad idea after all.

Quote:
This is from the rule book, page 15 PC 1 section D #2 states, Purposely committing a procedural error because your score will be better even with the penalty, or #3 states not reloading to fire one more round because your score will be better even with the miss
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Old December 21, 2011, 05:03 PM   #14
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Quote:
You have two targets left, If you don't shoot the targets you get 5 seconds added. If it takes you 11 seconds to reload, you're better off not engaging the targets and taking the misses.
whoa - Kraigwy - seriously? If you don't even bother shooting the targets, you'll get much more than 5 seconds added. I can think of...

10 seconds = 5 PDs for each of 4 misses (assuming the standard 2 rounds/target).

10 seconds = A Failure To Neutralize penalty (5 seconds) for each target that doesn't have at least 1 "down 1" or better.

3 second procedural for not shooting the minimum # of rounds

20 second Failure To Do Right (FTDR) for intentionally skipping the targets to improve your score.

Lessee...comes to 43 seconds. A mighty costly tactic. I don't recommend it.

(Edit added: DonP beat me to it. Like minds chiming in. )


More to the OPs point, though, is that if you're wanting to improve in IDPA, you've got establish a solid habit of shooting within your control. Hosing targets while racking up the PDs and other penalties in the process is a bad habit, and a tough one to break. Do this, and you'll plateau until you do break it. People get faster as they gain experience, but they rarely, IME, get more accurate. Laying a solid foundation now pays big dividends later.
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Old December 21, 2011, 05:19 PM   #15
Don P
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Well said MrBorland, speed will come and many a shooter will state "get your hits". The fellow I mentioned in my first responce proved mine and your point. In 2 strings he cut 6 + seconds off his time by slowing up and getting his hits(without misses)
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Old December 21, 2011, 05:50 PM   #16
Jim Watson
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Quote:
My rule of thumb is to keep total time down from PDs within 10% of total.
There is one school of thought that 10% PD (including the occasional PE or HNT) is optimum. If you are more accurate than that, you probably need to speed up.

Usually it is the other way 'round.
IDPA (and IPSC) is getting a lot of novice shooters.
They hear the rapid fire and see the movement and props and think "Hey this is kewl, this is what I need to shoot." Unfortunately omitting the step of learning the basics of getting hits under straightforward slowfire conditions. Not to mention how to operate the gun.

And I wonder at things like:

"I'm just gearing up for IDPA this next spring... Agreed, I like the rules in IDPA but from what I've seen there's still too much emphasis on speed vs accuracy."

Maybe you could put in a few (or a few dozen) matches before rewriting the rules for us. I think you will find the penalties adequate for the purpose.
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Old December 21, 2011, 08:50 PM   #17
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Well baddarryl, you have asked the age old question in the shooting sports. There has been some good advice given too. I pretty much agree with the 10% thing as something to think about after the match to get an idea of how you performed. How we pace this during the match is the hard part. While shooting don't think about speed or accuracy. Don't think about shooting fast and never think about slowing down to shoot more accurately. Focus on seeing the sights as well as you need to on each shot. This may be a soft focus on close targets and a hard focus on distant or tight targets. Break each shot as soon you see the sight picture you need. As you gain experience you learn to see your sights faster and faster and learn the quality of sight picture needed for individual targets. Develop the visual patience needed to do this. As you learn to see faster you will naturally be able to shoot faster.

As a great man once said "Speed without hits is just a waste of ammo. Conversely, hits without speed is just a waste of time."


For new shooters, the moments in a stage when you are not shooting actually waste most of the time. Learn a smooth draw and reload then work on making it faster. Move quickly but under control between positions. Don't waste time getting to the shooting.
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Old December 22, 2011, 07:17 AM   #18
Don P
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From my personal experience, as the PD's increase for me just means shooting too fast. By slowing down PD's should drop. Guess we all must find that happy medium where speed is at its fastest with the PD's being at there lowest. To much of either one is no good for it shows in overall time.
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Old December 22, 2011, 02:33 PM   #19
baddarryl
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Thanks so much for the discussion guys. This is what I love about this forum and what I have found in IDPA too!
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Old December 22, 2011, 06:54 PM   #20
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You have to have a solid foundation to build any skills from. Practice, practice, practice. Bad reloads will cost you seconds, and they all add up.

Practice the correct grip, draws and reloads and speed will come with time. Trying to push speed usually results in
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Old December 22, 2011, 07:01 PM   #21
Jim Watson
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...hitting the submit button too soon?


As one Master class shooter says, it is not how fast you shoot, it is how fast you do the other stuff while you are not shooting. You can save seconds on target acqusition and transition and moves instead of tenths on the splits.
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Old December 23, 2011, 07:01 PM   #22
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Quote:
I thought fast was good, ha. When I learned a shot in the "A" area was worth 5 points and a miss was a -10, well, let's just say that my scores were negative for all stages............
M4BGRINGO, don't despair! In my first two matches, I came in dead last because I was such a nervous shooter mostly. We both know what dividing by zero gives you on a stage....

It sucks, because in practice alone you know how much better you are. Just keep shooting and practicing including dry firing until everything is like driving a car. Part of the fun is to watch yourself improve at matches and work your way up in the ranks and classifications. Just don't sweat it, have fun and not worry about it.
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Old December 23, 2011, 09:29 PM   #23
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Don't feel bad, I shot IDPA all summer before I learned there were scoring rings on the targets.
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Old December 24, 2011, 03:25 AM   #24
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Barring game specific math, which I do like the 10% target PD, speed for any action shooting is regulated by the same thing. Speed is dictated by your front sight. At some point you will naturally transition to where you can break that rule and start doing stuff like point shooting, target focus, les refined sight pictures without thinking about it. But start at the front sight.

New shooters who shoot too fast for their ability outnumber those who shoot too slow by a factor of ten. I have personally doubled someone's ability in their first match by simply pointing out that those GMs in the squad really were seeing their sights for each of those shots and it was permissible for the new guy to slow down a little and focus on quality.
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Old December 24, 2011, 03:48 PM   #25
MrBorland
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Quote:
the moments in a stage when you are not shooting actually waste most of the time. Learn a smooth draw and reload then work on making it faster. Move quickly but under control between positions. Don't waste time getting to the shooting.
Quote:
As one Master class shooter says, it is not how fast you shoot, it is how fast you do the other stuff while you are not shooting. You can save seconds on target acqusition and transition and moves instead of tenths on the splits.
Yep - the OP asked about accuract/speed, but we'd be remiss if we didn't also point out that efficiency in movement is very important. Move fast, shoot slow is much more efficient than the opposite.

Quote:
New shooters who shoot too fast for their ability outnumber those who shoot too slow by a factor of ten. I have personally doubled someone's ability in their first match by simply pointing out that those GMs in the squad really were seeing their sights for each of those shots and it was permissible for the new guy to slow down a little and focus on quality.
Watching other shooters or youtube vids can be a good learning experience if you watch how they move & when they shoot. It can take you down the wrong road entirely, however, if all you take in is their trigger speed.
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