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Old December 19, 2011, 08:46 PM   #51
MTT TL
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That's exactly why the Army dropped it - double the recoil, half the ammo, big heavy gun. In the day, patrols didn't go out in full battle rattle. No armor, maybe not even a helmet, ammo and water only. All the glamor shots of .308 main battle rifle carriers showed a lot more trimming down over the years, as the fighting was deescalated to guerrilla warfare. So, the .308 was able to hang on, because the soldiers could dump institutional gear. And, guess what - no AR10's.
Which Army dropped the AR-10? The US Army never adopted it. So far as I know the only Army to use it has been the South African.

In which day did soldiers normally go without helmet on conventional patrols? The civil war? Certainly no recent day, such as no day within the last 100 years.

Back then the rifle was quite heavy. A 1903 was about 9 pounds. A Garand might tip the scales at 10 pounds. But it was strange design that caused the weight to increase. The Army wanted a smaller lighter cartridge so they got one.

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They never made it much in prime time, the FNFAL, G3,and M14 were the major players. No press coverage means it's only been recently that shooters are even considering them, and that's because of Afghanistan. Even so, consider the ratio - 100,000 M16's and M4's, vs. 5,000 rekitted M14's, and a few exotic AR10's in special units. And the SCAR Heavy.
The reason there was such a diversity of weapons had a lot to do with post European politics and less to do with design. In the US for many years they were banned, just like AR-15s. When the market reemerged AR-15s took off.

AR-15s have large advantages for recreational shooting, three gun matches and home defense over AR-10s. If you want an AR-10 you really have to be interested in longer range shooting, otherwise you may as well get an AR-15 platform. Most people are not interested in long range shooting mostly because most people have no place to shoot long range.

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In a crowd of lever guns, the Browning BAR sticks out by being the only one in the county. Same for the AR10.


I own several different type of ARs including some of the DPMS LR-308s. They are heavy, expensive to operate (comparatively) and quite accurate at long range. But you have to want to shoot them.
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Old December 19, 2011, 09:24 PM   #52
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My 2 cents...

From the perspective of a owner of a 308 round and a ar-15....

I cannot hardly see the use of the 308 in my cetme for anything other then mid to long range combat...thats why I threw the scope on it.

The ar-15 is essentially a freakin cannon in 308...not very usefull in a firefight situation where accuracy out weighs the need for firepower.

Is a novelty to me...but as a Gun enthusiast/Shooter, I will stick to my 5.45, 7.62x39 and 7.62x54

Much wonder can be done with a PSL-54c, I like them MUCH MUCH MUCH better than the ar platform, of course Im speaking of the 556, a 308 instead horrifys me more.
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Old December 19, 2011, 10:53 PM   #53
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Basicly cost of equipment and ammo. When hunting you are limited as to number of rounds in the rifle and it doesn't do anything my 270 or 30-06 can't. Where's the advantage? If it takes you 5 or 10 rounds to kill that deer, you shouldn't be hunting in the first place and why would you want to carry around all that extra weight?

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Old December 20, 2011, 08:41 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by MTT TL
Quote:
That's exactly why the Army dropped it - double the recoil, half the ammo, big heavy gun. In the day, patrols didn't go out in full battle rattle. No armor, maybe not even a helmet, ammo and water only. All the glamor shots of .308 main battle rifle carriers showed a lot more trimming down over the years, as the fighting was deescalated to guerrilla warfare. So, the .308 was able to hang on, because the soldiers could dump institutional gear. And, guess what - no AR10's.


Which Army dropped the AR-10? The US Army never adopted it. So far as I know the only Army to use it has been the South African.

In which day did soldiers normally go without helmet on conventional patrols? The civil war? Certainly no recent day, such as no day within the last 100 years.
I was going to ask the same. The .308/7.62 AR platform is used by several NATO forces. The Canadians use the ArmaLite AR10, the Brits use the LMT MWS, the US Army has a few KAC systems in use.
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Old December 20, 2011, 01:11 PM   #55
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one thing to consider is weight. the AR10 is a lot heavier than the AR15.

another thing like you meantioned is price but that is two-fold. you endup paying more for both ammo and the rifle. you can pick up a reasonable AR15 for 600-800 dollars now. the absolute cheapest AR10 I've seen is $1000+.

and then some AR15 variants such as the 6.8 or 6.5 are a very good compromise between the 308 and 5.56 and now more people are supporting the 6.8 by making rifles, manufacturing ammo and offering aftermarket upgrades so the for the same ammo price and about equal gun price you get a gun that is more lightweight, is a very decent hunting rifle and has the potential for cheaper ammo prices down the road.

the AR10 is more of a range toy and competition gun at this point in the game I'm afraid. I really want an AR10 but I would opt for a 243 rather than 308.
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Old December 20, 2011, 07:34 PM   #56
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The AR-10 is a cool rifle, but it's expensive. A bolt action .308 would fit my needs better, and cost half or three times less, maybe.
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Old December 21, 2011, 02:02 PM   #57
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The recoil throws off the harmonics of the asphalt spreader and the weight makes the shooter have to choose between the seven optics or the snowcone maker.

But seriously, I think it's because there are already .308 rifles out there that are well known and respected. So when people go out looking for a .308 they know rifles such as the M1A, FAL and HK91. All these rifles seem to fall into the same price range (1000-1500) and have surplus replacement parts available.

Weight I'm not sure is a real big killer, most people would probably expect it to weigh more because of the larger caliber.

So my coffin nails would probably be.

1. Competition with other .308 rifles available in it's price range.
2. Weakening popularity of the round for a 'sporting' purpose other than hunting.
3. I'll throw weight in here, just because I suppose someone knowing the AR15 might be thrown off by the extra poundage of the AR10.
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Old December 21, 2011, 08:02 PM   #58
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Only mall-ninjas need tacti-cool semi 308s to hunt game...

.223 semis are fun for varmints but still, unnecessary.
I hunt with an AR. there is nothing like night hunting pigs with a semi auto rifle. Here their thick as fleas on a dog and the land owners want'em gone. nothing like a semi auto to get it done. Some nights we can kill upwards of 15 pigs in one night. Try that with your old school bolt gun. Back east we can use night vision and surpressors. They hate hogs back home too. Nothing like a supressed AR10 and so many dead hogs you need three pick up trucks to get them out the fields..
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Old December 21, 2011, 11:29 PM   #59
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No slight to the hog hunters out there, but there are many more deer hunters making up the market, and for them, compared to regular sporting rifles, the AR class guns in .308 have more drawbacks than advantages.

Some places don't allow semi autos for deer hunint (PA, IIRC).
MOST places do not allow 20rnd mags for deer hunting (and no, you cannot just load the 20 rnder with 5 rnds and be legal).

The bare rifle weighs more than the majority of deer caliber sporting guns, with scope!

The shape, while ergonomic for combat, is poor for stalking, compared to many other rifles.

Weight is a huge item for lots of people. Notice the millions of sporterized bolt actions (mostly Mausers and Springfields, but including Krags, Arisakas, SMLEs and others) that had their stock cut down, handguards discarded, and other things done to them to reduce the weight, and make them better hunting rifles. You can't do much to lighten an AR.

I have used the M1A and the H&K 91 for hunting. I have shot AR 10s, from different makers (with different names, but basically the same guns), but for deer hunting, I would rather have a bolt action, or lever gun.

SO, if you are looking for a deer rifle, the size, weight, and cost of the AR in .308 all works against it in the market.

Personally, I don't think that there is anyone who buys an AR in .308 for deer hunting. They buy it for other reasons, and then (sometimes) take it hunting. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that.

I'm not bashing the gun, and by no means bashing anyone who hunts with one. If it works for you, enjoy it. Its just not optimised for that.

And thats why they don't have much of the market.

Why do you think a Winchester or Marlin carbine in .30-30 is still one of the most common and popular deer rifles, after well over a hundred years? Its because for what a lot of people do, they offer enough power, range, and compactness to do the job. And they carry very well, being short and light, comparitively speaking. Lots of guns in better cartridges get passed over, because they aren't as "handy" in the woods. And that is one thing I find about the .308 ARs, they are a lot of things, including accurate, but they aren't what I call "handy".
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Old December 21, 2011, 11:36 PM   #60
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expensive ammo!!!
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Old December 22, 2011, 01:54 AM   #61
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No slight to the hog hunters out there
If you pay, you can shoot a .308 AR to hunt our hogs. I hope no-one makes a face though. X

.223 in any config - not unless we know you. Way too many city types with tricked out ARs shooting that tiny bullet (that I love) who can't take a hog with one...unless they have help.
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Old December 22, 2011, 07:21 AM   #62
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Why is it that people that own and shoot the 7.62 AR platform tend to love them, warts and all. The people that do not own them, or can't afford them, tend to hate them.
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Old December 22, 2011, 08:14 AM   #63
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Why aren't 308 "ARs" very popular?
Probably because they have no US historical roots where large numbers of the rifles be issued and they rarely had wood stocks.
The story may be a little different 20 years from now because a rather small number of 308 ARs have been issued for
use in the sand box and people will be talking about their battle experiences in years to come.

I owned one and it was very nice, but it lacked that certain something you get with an M14.
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Old December 22, 2011, 08:39 AM   #64
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When I was in the market for a .308 battle rifle, I went with the Springfield Squad Scout M1A. I never even really considered an AR-10. Just not interested. I do own 2 AR-15's but I don't get excited about a .308 built on the AR platform.
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Old January 9, 2012, 06:54 AM   #65
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I don't know fellas. I own a POF P308, and LMT MWS. Both are great guns although the POF almost turned me off from an AR .308 before I got a couple bugs worked out. I also own an M1A and FNH SPR. I've shot FALs, HK 91's and a Saiga in .308. I guess I just love rifles in a very flexible all around useful cartridge. They all have different uses in mind when the manufacturers built them. The thing about AR's is I think they are more adaptable to take on multiple roles better than any other .308 rifles out there. Sometimes you can't get the best possible tool for a job. A jack of all trades helps fill the gaps. If someone can only afford one .308 rifle, the AR could put that person in the best postion to enjoy every arena of firearms ownership. From range trips, to hunting, to competive shooting such as 3 gun, to defense. Is it the best for any of these? Definitely not! But you will be in the middle of the pack on any of these activities. People can argue the same thing about all battle rifles which they would have merit. Many people say they choose the M1A over an AR, and I believe it can be considered for all these activities, with a little bit more modification than what would be needed on the AR. Getting picatinny rails on the M1a to accept the variety of optics (I'm aware that some SOCOM models come with it, but placed far out in front where you are limited to long eye relief scopes. I'm also aware you can buy the rail adapter for regular M1A's but this is yet another modification needed), even changing the stock to a pistol grip via Sage's EBR modular stock or McMillan's pistol grip stock in order for it to be handier in situations where a pistol grip may work best (the Weight of a M1A in those stocks exceeds the weight of my AR's).

The LMT is by far my favorite. The feel, weight distribution, felt recoil and cheek weld match up well to my body frame. I have an eotech XPS 3 sitting on top and it is a damn fine rifle for punching holes in paper as well as hides. The problem is finding a reliable low capacity mag to feed the rifle in states where the law states. There are a couple folks who have cut the PMAG down successfully.
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Old January 9, 2012, 07:05 AM   #66
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MOST places do not allow 20rnd mags for deer hunting (and no, you cannot just load the 20 rnder with 5 rnds and be legal).
44AMP...

... that is why the DPMS mags are only 19rds.... not 20
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Old January 9, 2012, 08:15 AM   #67
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Re: the 19 rd mags...I was curious about that. So most states allow mag fed rifles just below 20 round mags?
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Old January 9, 2012, 09:43 AM   #68
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Many states have a five round limit in semi guns for hunting. That is why you can buy a five round AR10 mag or a five round M14 mag.
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Old January 9, 2012, 09:50 AM   #69
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Weight between a LR308B (18" bull barrel) full 20 rd mag (C products), 1907 leather sling, 4 ~ 16 x 50 AO scope & AR15, RRA .223, 24" bull barrel, 1907 leather sling, full 20 rd mag, 4 ~ 16 x 50 AO scope.
& just for chuckles, a Garand with its 8 rd mag full & 1907 leather sling, no scope.
AR 15: 12.5 lbs
LR308: 13.5 lbs
Garand: 10.8 lbs

Scopes on either AR with mounts & adaptors run 42 oz (2.6 lb)
Full mgazines: .308 26oz (1.6 lb) .223: 13 oz (.68 lb)

Rifle weights measured on my wifes (hated) digital bathroom scale.
Mag & scope weights on my trigger pull guage.
Not a lightweight in the pile. Both the ARs are consistent sub moa rifles, the Garand not so much.
Put a scope on the Garand, and it weighs about the same as the ARs. (est. 13.4 lb.)

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Old January 9, 2012, 05:24 PM   #70
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I'll speak up for all us .308 owners.

Please, don't buy them - stick to your AR-15s. That's fine by us!
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Old January 27, 2013, 11:39 AM   #71
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Recoil difference maybe? Most people I know wouldn't have a problem popping a hundred rounds of .223 off, but try and do the same with a .308 caliber round and it becomes a challenge after the third or fourth round.
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Old January 27, 2013, 01:35 PM   #72
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I went with the 6.8 because

1) lighter

2) ability to switch to 223, 300blk, and even 22

3) the 6.8 120g SST is awesome on deer and pigs

I ALMOST went with a Sig 716...... Though
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Old January 27, 2013, 03:09 PM   #73
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Wish I could find a 6.8 upper without paying through the hiney hole!
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Old January 27, 2013, 03:16 PM   #74
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If I get a .308 its going to be a left handed bolt action rifle

I don't need a clip full of .308 to hunt deer with. A single round of .30-30 or .35 remington does the trick out of a lever gun. If it takes you 5-10 rounds of .308 to kill a deer, I think you need some more practice more than you need to be in the woods.
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Old January 27, 2013, 05:13 PM   #75
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Why aren't 308 "AR-15's" very popular?

Simple

Because the M14 / M1A are the bees knees. Have you ever fired one?
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