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Old December 16, 2011, 09:53 AM   #1
jonnyc
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C&R Renewal Ques.

Sure it's been asked before, but....

On Ques.7, they ask for the number of guns you've bought and sold on your license in the past 3 years.

First, do they want to know how many C&R guns I've acquired or those I actually gave the seller a copy of my license? That number might be different.

Second, you don't sell or dispose of a C&R gun by using a license of any kind. Do they want to know how many C&R eligible guns I have disposed of?

Thanks in advance.
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Old December 16, 2011, 10:40 AM   #2
Dino.
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I'm not 100% sure, but I would think the information you provide should match the information recorded in your binder.

Again, not 100% sure.
Curious to hear what others have to say.
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Old December 16, 2011, 10:57 AM   #3
dogtown tom
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Quote:
jonnyc Sure it's been asked before, but....

On Ques.7, they ask for the number of guns you've bought and sold on your license in the past 3 years.

First, do they want to know how many C&R guns I've acquired or those I actually gave the seller a copy of my license? That number might be different.

Second, you don't sell or dispose of a C&R gun by using a license of any kind. Do they want to know how many C&R eligible guns I have disposed of?
1. List ALL C&R firearms you acquired while you were licensed....whether you used your license to acquire a particular firearm is irrelevant.

2. Yes
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Old December 19, 2011, 07:28 PM   #4
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This is a screening question to make certain that you are not using your C&R to buy and then sell firearms like an 01 dealer.
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Old December 20, 2011, 10:32 PM   #5
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I have a similar question in this forum so hopefully I will get mine answered too.

I have the form in front of me and it states, "How many firearms have you bought or acquired [B]with your firearms license [B] over the past 3 years?"

It seems plain to me that if you bought a c & r qualified gun at you local store you would not need to count this, since you wouldn't need your license. Am I missing something?
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Old December 21, 2011, 12:03 AM   #6
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Quote:
Am I missing something?
Yes. Any C&R firearm you purchase must be logged into your bound book weather or not you used your license for the purchase.
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Old December 21, 2011, 08:08 AM   #7
Don P
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Yes. Any C&R firearm you purchase must be logged into your bound book weather or not you used your license for the purchase.
At a seminar with the ATF they stated the opposite with regards to C&R and purchases made with a 4473. Go figure
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Old December 21, 2011, 09:37 AM   #8
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Quote:
At a seminar with the ATF they stated the opposite with regards to C&R and purchases made with a 4473. Go figure
I'll have to check into that one. Maybe they have made a change.
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Old December 21, 2011, 12:26 PM   #9
lagavulin62
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cheapshooter,

I am not here to argue whether or not you are correct, you probably are. but if you are then based on that form that is not what the ATF is asking. If they want all included, regardless of whether or not the license was used, they need to state that. as such, any person with a reasonable understanding of english would take it to mean only those where the license was used. also they did not state anything about a bound book on this form. this discussion comes up often and I think many, as well as myself, just include every c & r purchase in our bound books just to be on the safe side. in regards to the bound book do you know the exact place it says to include all c&r purchases in that book of regulations? it never hurts to review.
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Old December 21, 2011, 01:57 PM   #10
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I could be wrong. But I always interpreted that whatever you buy with the C&R license must be logged in the bound book. If the license was not used to acquire the C&R firearm, then you do not have to log it in. Then again whatever C&R items I have in my possession was acquired with the C&R license, so they are logged regardless.

Hypothetical Situations to ponder

Your neighbor gave you a C&R firearm and you didn't use the C&R license to acquire it.

You bought a C&R firearm with the 4473/NICS route and didn't use the C&R license to acquire it.

You have a firearm that is 49 3/4 years old and then apply and get a C&R license but the firearm turned 50 years old the same day the license comes in the mail...do you log it in the bound book ?

Same situation almost ...the firearm you got from a private sale is 45 years old when you got it 5 years ago. You had a C&R license for awhile but today the gun turns 50. Do you have to now log it in when it turns 50 years old even though it was 45 years old when you first acquired it?
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Old December 21, 2011, 03:48 PM   #11
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I stand corrected...Kinda! After doing a lot of research I could not find a direct quote from the BATF on the subject. The closest I did find was that if you owned a C&R firearm before you got the license, or if one "aged" itself to C&R, you only have to enter it in your bound book if and when you sell it. You log it in as "from personal collection" and log it out to the buyer. I still haven't found the exact quote on the purchase of one without your license, but I would think it would be handled the same way.
The other odd thing is that if your license expires, and you don't renew it, you can just throw the bound book away! BATF doesn't want it, unlike 01 dealers who have to turn theirs in.
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Old December 21, 2011, 09:40 PM   #12
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However........
On the renewal form there is a little "coupon" to be used if you are not renewing your license. Just below my obvious 03 number, #1 reminds the license-holder to turn in their records upon "discontinuance of business". That's ok, but on the other side of the form, #2 talks about "business or operations authorized by my license". That refers to both 01 and 03 operations. I can't tell if ATF document writers are being tricky and purposely vague, or they're just ****-poor writers and editors.
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Old December 22, 2011, 06:42 AM   #13
Don P
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Quote:
However........
On the renewal form there is a little "coupon" to be used if you are not renewing your license. Just below my obvious 03 number, #1 reminds the license-holder to turn in their records upon "discontinuance of business". That's ok, but on the other side of the form, #2 talks about "business or operations authorized by my license". That refers to both 01 and 03 operations. I can't tell if ATF document writers are being tricky and purposely vague, or they're just ****-poor writers and editors.
It is more commonly known as the federal bureaucracy along with a extra heavy dose of double talk. It makes no sense so it must have DC involved and the fools we elect
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Old December 22, 2011, 07:30 PM   #14
MarkDozier
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The answer is -
If you buy a C&R firearm as a citizen you do not enter it in your bound book.
If you buy under your license such as buying from a dealer to you as a C&R holder you enter it in the bound book.
If you sell a gun that is in your bound book you enter it as a sold gun,
If you loan a gun in your bound book, you log it out of the book and log it back in when you get the gun back.
If you have a gun that ages into C&R age bracket it is not automatically a C&R firearm. It must be listed on the published list to be C&R classified.
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Old December 22, 2011, 07:48 PM   #15
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what's wrong with you people. guns are meant to be bought....not sold.
only exception is trading for something better.
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Old December 22, 2011, 07:50 PM   #16
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Quote:
If you have a gun that ages into C&R age bracket it is not automatically a C&R firearm. It must be listed on the published list to be C&R classified.
That is false. The moment a gun becomes 50 years old it is automatically a C&R.
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Old December 22, 2011, 08:58 PM   #17
jonnyc
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"If you buy a C&R firearm as a citizen you do not enter it in your bound book."

I believe this is incorrect and illegal. You technically don't "use" your C&R, you "are" a C&R licensed individual. Any C&R eligible firearm you acquire, no matter by what means you acquired it, is supposed to be logged in, unless it was owned before you got your C&R license.
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Old December 22, 2011, 11:37 PM   #18
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Quote:
"If you buy a C&R firearm as a citizen you do not enter it in your bound book."

I believe this is incorrect and illegal. You technically don't "use" your C&R, you "are" a C&R licensed individual. Any C&R eligible firearm you acquire, no matter by what means you acquired it, is supposed to be logged in, unless it was owned before you got your C&R license.
Check post 7. This thing keeps going round, and round. I still haven't found that actually stated by the BATF, although it has been a long time assumed rule.
Gonna keep digging 'till I find something!
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Old December 23, 2011, 12:53 AM   #19
Cheapshooter
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Quote:
(f) Firearms receipt and disposition
by licensed collectors. Each licensed
collector shall enter into a record each
receipt and disposition of firearms curios
or relics. The record required by this paragraph shall be maintained in bound form
under the format prescribed below.
This was taken from the Federal Firearms Regulations Referance Guide. Dated 2005

It's all up to interpretation, and mine is that EACH means the same as ANY. There is no mention of an exception for C&R firearms bought not using a C&R license.
I'm not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV, but I think I'll play it safe and enter any C&R I buy without using my license into my bound book. What's the harm anyway? It isn't public record, and most likely will never be looked at.
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Last edited by Cheapshooter; December 23, 2011 at 01:00 AM.
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Old December 23, 2011, 07:17 AM   #20
Don P
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Quote:
I believe this is incorrect and illegal. You technically don't "use" your C&R, you "are" a C&R licensed individual. Any C&R eligible firearm you acquire, no matter by what means you acquired it, is supposed to be logged in, unless it was owned before you got your C&R license.
This may be considered apples and oranges. I'll put this forward.
FFL-01 stops at a store buys a gun on a 4473. What does he/she do when getting home with regards to the bound book? Gun was purchased for his/her personal use.

Quote:
That is false. The moment a gun becomes 50 years old it is automatically a C&R.
My K-22 model 17 left S&W in 1960 and the K-38 Combat Masterpiece 4 screw pre-model number left S&W in 1957. The seller of the K-38 would not sell it on a C&R had to use 4473. Is he right or wrong?
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Old December 23, 2011, 09:05 AM   #21
jonnyc
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Simple:

#1 - He MUST log it into his 01 logbook.

#2 - The seller can do what he wants; sell it as a C&R or not. There is no law that says a firearm MUST be sold as a C&R.
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