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Old November 20, 2011, 12:57 AM   #1
boylen33
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Help with an antique gun-Markings-Bohler-Blitz Stahl-UPDATED-marking pics added

Hi guys,
Hoping you can offer me some insight as to what exactly this gun is and perhaps a guesstimate on value. All I know about it are the markings I could locate on the gun. I have included several pictures that show the etchings and markings on the gun. Here are links to those pics:

Entire Gun:

Etchings/Carvings:


More Etchings/Carvings:


Markings 1:


Markings 2:

Last edited by boylen33; November 20, 2011 at 07:26 PM.
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Old November 20, 2011, 01:30 AM   #2
briandg
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You really needed to copy those marks off for us. is it a rifle, or a shotgun? are the marks in english, or foreign language?

Here is what I can observe. it looks very strongly european. those are roe deer, unless I'm mistaken. The sling attached to the barrels is a uniquely european thing.

The very long sideplates and the short, rounded hammer are unusuall. It appears to have rifle sights.

The fit of those side plates is unbelievable. the engraving is quite nice; the checkering on the action lever and the engraved screw head are very nice touches. the checkering is nice.

I'm going to take a guess at Germany or balkan area, turn of the century, smokeless, probably a rimmed 8 mm cartridge, and that was a fine piece in its time. It was used, but cared for, and owned by real wealth and influence. This was something that went out on the hunt when the burgomeister went to deer camp. it wasnt' drug out by the guy who cut firewood and poached deer for a living.

I'd love to see better pictures, and I'm really looking forward to the experts weiging in.
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Old November 20, 2011, 01:52 AM   #3
boylen33
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Markings

The markings on the gun barrel reads:

Bohler-Blitz Stahl

The markings underneath the detachable barrel stock read what appears to be the same thing, with 1460 above it.

The gun is at my parents house and I took these pics with my phone earlier, so the quality isn't the best. I will take some better pics with a good camera tomorrow.

Here are a couple more pics:





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Old November 20, 2011, 02:59 AM   #4
mete
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Bohler is a steel company, now www.Bohler-Edelstahl.com , Blitz Stahl would be their trade name for the barrel steel.
There were many small gunmaking operations in Germany and Austria in the past so more information will be needed to determine the maker.
Bore and chamber dimensions would be helpful and any other markings .
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Old November 20, 2011, 08:24 AM   #5
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It's definitely German (Bohler and Krupp were the two biggest suppliers of steel for German gunmakers), but trying to figure out who exactly made it is going to require more information. Have you looked along the entire length of the rib (some markings are very light and hard to read, especially on an engraved rib)? It's a back-action side-hammer, which was last popular at the end of the 1800s, but the proofs on the bottom of the barrel will be a better clue as to when it was made. Your first step should be to break the rifle down into its 3 main parts (forearm, receiver and barrel) and take a very close look at every single one of them for any names or addresses, and take CLEAR pictures of any stamps.
HTH.
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Old November 20, 2011, 09:12 AM   #6
mapsjanhere
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A German made gun will have proof marks under the barrel. Take off the forearm, if you open the gun after that is will come apart and you can take pictures of the marks. There should be a number like 7.8 or 9.1 to indicate the caliber, so it's diameter at the lands and will not match the nominal (groove) caliber like 8 and 9.3.
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Old November 20, 2011, 10:31 AM   #7
boylen33
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Big thanks for the info and guidance guys! I will break the gun down this afternoon and inspect it more closely. I will also take better pictures. Thanks again!
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Old November 20, 2011, 07:19 PM   #8
boylen33
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Hey again guys!

I took the gun apart and took some pictures of all the markings I could find. Here are some pics:

These are the markings on the underneath of the (forearm?) when I took the barrel off:


This is a marking off the underneath of the barrel:


This is a marking located on the thing (sorry for lack of terminology) attached to underneath of barrel. It reads "74":


Marking on underneath of removed barrel stock. Reads: 1460:


Initials carved into underneath of removed barrel stock. Reads CAS


Carve into stock. Appears to read "Ozzng"
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Old November 20, 2011, 07:28 PM   #9
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One more pic of a marking that appears to read 6.8 (or 6 circle 8), or could be 8.9 if upside down

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Old November 21, 2011, 12:24 AM   #10
SIGSHR
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"Blitz Stahl"= "Lightning Steel" in German.
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Old November 21, 2011, 08:35 AM   #11
mapsjanhere
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The NPF mark is distinctive, Austria with a Ferlach proof.
The rest of the marks are not described in the one book I have with a chapter of Austrian proof marks, but my first read would be:
8.9 => 9mm caliber, proofed with a 13.25 g (204 gr) bullet
proof done Jul 1929 with 30% overload
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Old November 21, 2011, 09:20 AM   #12
boylen33
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Thanks for the info!

But, what does it all mean? Is that particular maker desirable?
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Old November 21, 2011, 10:30 AM   #13
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Still really hard to say. It depends on what factory. I don't think that was a ground up build. that's a beautiful, elegant piece, with serious condition problems, and what will make or break it is provenance and history. Who owned it, who made it, rarity, so forth. Even as a wall hanger, I'm willing to bet that you could probably get at least $1,000.
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Old November 21, 2011, 11:49 AM   #14
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NP should be NitroProof that is proofed for smokeless powder rather than black.
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Old November 21, 2011, 01:34 PM   #15
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One of the barrel marks appears to be "Öster", the abbreviation for Österreich, or Austria. That, plus the Ferlach proof mark pretty well makes the gun of Austrian, not German, manufacture.

Jim
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Old November 21, 2011, 02:32 PM   #16
mapsjanhere
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In regards to value, from the pictures you showed it's not in particularly great condition. While it has a Ferlach proof mark, it does have no Ferlach maker's mark (and as Ferlach was the center of Austrian gun making, every Ferlach maker would have marked it clearly). So you have a nice stalking rifle of unknown Austrian manufacture, most likely in an obsolete caliber if the 8.9 mark indicates it (you should make a chamber cast), made between the wars and "liberated" by some GI after the war. Typically they are advertised (but not sold) for a $1,000 - $1,500 on gunbroker.
If I see it at a gun show with a $750 price I might take a close look at it for the craftsmanship, but not more. BTW in German these guns are known as Ischl Stutzen, after the Austrian Emporer Franz Joseph's favorite vacation (and hunting) town.
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Old November 21, 2011, 03:08 PM   #17
boylen33
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Perhaps there is a maker's mark on the gun that I am missing. I will have to go back and inspect it more closely. Where should I look in particular?
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Old November 21, 2011, 04:06 PM   #18
mapsjanhere
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Find any of these names anywhere on the gun and you doubled the value.
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Old December 19, 2011, 06:34 PM   #19
johnhauk62
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Bohler-Blitz Stahl

I have just come into posession of a double barreled shotgun that looks almost exactly like boylen33's with all of the other marks he shows in his pictures. I will try to submit some pictures. The gun is in very good condition. Would you be able to direct me to a dealer somewhere in the area I live so I can take both the Bohler-Blitz Stahl and also a Browning over/under?
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Old December 19, 2011, 06:35 PM   #20
johnhauk62
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Bohler-Blitz Stahl

By the way ~ I live in Northville, Michigan.
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Old December 19, 2011, 08:01 PM   #21
PetahW
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FWIW, "Bohler-Blitz Stahl" is a description of the "superior" material used in making the barrel(s) - a telling selling point - and NOT a firearm manufacturer or brand name.

The buttstock scratching & "CAS" on the forend iron, of the OP's gun, are amateur owner's markings - added sometime in the gun's lifetime, after it left Austria.

The 'thingie" on the OP's gun's barrel should be the front sling swivel.

IMHO, it's a well-crafted Alpine Stalking Rifle, marked or not.
I like the back-action lock & Roebuck engraving(s).

I would WAG it as being pre-1900, since it's a hammergun.

.

Last edited by PetahW; December 19, 2011 at 08:07 PM.
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