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Old December 13, 2011, 07:33 PM   #1
secret_agent_man
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Black Person, Black Hoodie = Reasonable Suspicion?

Or was it the eye contact that caused officers in a marked Lake Charles, LA police car to pull this woman over when the suspect was a man.

The cops didn't radio the stop in to dispatch, so there is no official record of the stop. The two cops didn't let the woman or her husband see their badges and get numbers. This isn't about the methodology of the police, but rather about legally sufficient suspicion:

Does the presence of hoodie on a black person of undetermined sex making eye contact with police constitute the reasonable suspicion necessary for a stop?

http://www.americanpress.com/complaint-against-lcpd
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Old December 13, 2011, 07:54 PM   #2
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DWB- Driving While Black that is being stopped by the police for being black in a white area is actually a pretty common phenomenon. White people in "Black neighborhoods" are often stopped for the same reason; the police think that they are up to no good because they are out of place.

Is it reasonable? That I can not say. In this case the police were looking for an armed robber and the cop was an idiot.
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Old December 13, 2011, 07:55 PM   #3
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If it does then Jim crow is still alive and well...
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Old December 13, 2011, 08:00 PM   #4
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Its called profiling and Police do it everyday.

APB goes out on black male wearing black hoodie. Black person of unidentifiable sex wearing black hoodie is acting suspicious I'd stop them too. As soon as I learned they weren't male I'd explain why they were stopped and send them on their way. Wouldn't take but 5 minutes.
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Old December 13, 2011, 08:11 PM   #5
Young.Gun.612
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Read the story. That clearly is not what happened.
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Old December 13, 2011, 08:21 PM   #6
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Quote:
Read the story. That clearly is not what happened.
I don't know about "clearly". Maybe from the POV of the driver it was not what happened.
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Old December 13, 2011, 09:15 PM   #7
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I don't see anything firearms related...but police abuse of power is a big issue that somewhat contributes to the infringement upon the second amendment so I will play.


DWB Happens, so does DWW(Driving While White) I have said this before a lot; My father frequently got pulled over in mostly non white areas of Chicago when he was on his way home from work rather late, sometimes at 11 or 12 at night. It just so happens my companies office was located in a not so nice area at the time. Half the time the CPD officers would outright tell him "typically the only white guys in this area, this time of night are looking for hoes or to score. Thats why we pulled you over". No ticket of any kind whatsoever was ever issued to him in that time and no truly valid reason given. Oddly enough though, he often got treated differently depending if he was dressed in his normal suit or in jeans and a t shirt.

While I feel for the woman in this case and on its face it seems is excessive, nothing is going to come from this and nothing is going to change. If you look out of place; If you are the only white guy in a mostly black neighborhood that is also high crime area at 11pm or the only black guy in a town period you are at risk for being profiled. Officers in my limited interactions with them seems to pick up on things that are out of place. If you match "the general description" of a suspect odds are you are going to be stopped and questioned, the officer will make up a reason to stop you. If the suspect they are looking for is wanted for something bad, like a robbery odds are you are going to eat a little pavement. It might not be right but I can see the other side of the coin, for all the officer knows you ARE the suspect and you are waiting to pull out an "assault rifle" and make sure they don't go home that night.
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Old December 13, 2011, 10:03 PM   #8
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So the police pulls over an armed robbery suspect and didn't call it in?????
Sounds like normal procedure right?????? I've seen multiple units call for a routine traffic stop... Sounds like profiling to me!!!
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Old December 13, 2011, 10:15 PM   #9
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Since the police didn't call it in and the complainants didn't get a unit number, officer badge number and/or name; there really isn't any proof it even happened. Assuming there aren't independent witnesses, none were mentioned in the article.

If it really did happen and the officers involved don't come forward, I don't see how they will ever prove it.
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Old December 13, 2011, 11:28 PM   #10
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First I believe that we are all created equal as the contitutions states.... (No I dont want to hear about 1/2 or 1/4 part of anything) All are created equal..

Im so sick and tired of this card I wont even participate further.... It might have been whatever but I wasnt there and we have courts to figure this stuff out....
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Old December 14, 2011, 12:04 AM   #11
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The criteria established by the Supreme Court are that an officer may conduct an investigatory stop if he (/she) has "a reasonable suspicion based on clearly articulable facts" that a crime has been committed, is being committed, or is about to be committed. If (and I stress "if") that criterion has been met, meaning the officer must be able to clearly articulate WHY he (/she) was suspicious of the subject, the stop must be limited to the extent necessary to determine whether or not the subject fits the facts.

For the case in the article:

IF there really was a robbery, and IF the robber really wore a black hoodie, and IF the officers really thought the woman's hair looked like a hoodie -- that might provide sufficient "clearly articulable facts" to justify the initial stop.

"Might."

However, the alleged robber was a male wearing a hoodie. The woman was a female wearing ... hair. That was instantly obvious when she got out of the car, so IMHO the rest of the incident was totally bogus and nothing more than harassment. A female subject obviously does not fit the profile of a male robber, no matter what she's wearing or how she does her hair. End of discussion. "Oops, you're a gal and not a guy. Sorry, M'am. Carry on."
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Old December 14, 2011, 01:23 AM   #12
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This sounds like Barbara Streisand on many levels. If I do an investigatory stop I fill out a "contact" card none was filled out... The gypsy is in every car these days so there would be a record of the interaction that way. The specifics of encounter are dubious... I've never heard of a stop being performed in that manner... Sounds like a prelude to a bogus lawsuit to me.
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Old December 14, 2011, 09:05 AM   #13
secret_agent_man
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If a cop won't let you get his badge number or even see his face, perhaps he is not a real cop. Further confirmed by the fact the stop was not called in. The PD, however, is talking about these guys were it's people.

What about the dash cam? If there was one, the clip should be making youtube about now.
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Old December 14, 2011, 10:01 AM   #14
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Men in Black 2 (seems appropriate )

Mercedes pulls up with a dummy driver.
Agent K : Does that come standard?
Agent J : It used to have a black guy, but he kept getting pulled over.

Profiling just perpetuates racism and is a bad idea. However, if you have a credible witness stating that a black male wearing a black hoodie in that area committed a crime then it is no longer profiling but investigating.

You also have to wonder if this is just some hoax or persons impersonating police.
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Old December 14, 2011, 10:44 AM   #15
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http://www.kplctv.com/story/16130723...-armed-robbery
Quote:
On Saturday, 11.26.11, at approximately 10:18 PM, Officers with the Lake Charles Police Department responded to an armed robbery call in the 2600 block of Moeling Street at the Richmond Suites hotel.

http://www.americanpress.com/complaint-against-lcpd
Quote:
When they left after 10 p.m., Williams and her husband stopped to fill up at a gas station at the corner of Moeling Street and U.S. 171 in preparation for their drive home.

Williams said that as she drove out of the gas station and turned onto Moeling, she made eye contact with a police officer. She said the officer then turned on his lights, made a U-turn and began following Williams’ vehicle.
Starting to see a conection yet. I'm sure several vehicles were stopped as part of an ongoing search for a robbery suspect. All this would be part of the same incident and not recorded as seperate traffic incidents. American Press is just sob storying a legitimate stop.
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Old December 14, 2011, 10:56 AM   #16
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I worked in LC for about 6 weeks back in 2000 and it seemed like they were stuck in "In The Heat of The Night " mode. Wouldn't be surprised if it was true.

Doesn't make sense about a bogus lawsuit. No badge numbers, no names. Suing the police dept? With no evidence? Subpoena the dash cam videos from all the cruisers that night? It will either corroborate or refute the claim and the ones bringing the lawsuit will know this. So if it didn't happen and it is made up, they would put themselves at risk? Sketchy.
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Old December 14, 2011, 11:30 AM   #17
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I'm black, and grew up in Dallas TX. Even though I love the state, am a career DOD employee, I always got "second looks" as I call it, from the cops. By second look, I mean I could not drive by one without the gaze, and even sometimes the u-turn and short time follow (running my plates I'm sure). I can't say I was pulled over during these activities....but I sure was noticed. This made me naturally mistrust cops...sorry, but that's how it is.

Once I moved to Jacksonville Florida, it seemed all of that went away. I have even looked for it, and nothing...cops don't even look my way. It seems they have a very different attitude, why...I guess we could speculate. Even our neighborhood crime night outs are 100% different, the cops are friendlier...they seem to be from a very different breed, regardless of their race.
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Old December 14, 2011, 11:39 AM   #18
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When I first moved into my nice neighborhood in San Antonio, people of color complained that they were being stopped in it.

The DA was interviewed on the radio as saying the police should stop them as it was unlikely they belonged there. Nice guy as there were quite a few African-American families buying nice homes in our area.

I called in and said, sarcastically, why doesn't he issue officially approved minority stickers for our neighborhood. He didn't appreciate it but the host thought I was on the money.
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Old December 14, 2011, 12:05 PM   #19
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This used to be a big problem in West Palm Beach, FL, too.

I would have bought the "appearance matched the BOLO" until it was pointed out that the officer never called for back-up. That just seems odd...

On the other hand, I sometimes think people dress for effect (think punk styles reminiscent of skinhead culture, or hoodies and chains reminiscent of gang culture), but then don't like the effect they actually have.

I don't care if a person is black, white, or purple; but if they dress like a thug, I will eye them as potential thugs until I have reason to think otherwise. Doesn't mean I'll be mean to them, or that I want the police to hassle them out of hand, but they should realize how they present to others.

Edit: As I think about it, dressing like the local thugs do is kind of like wearing black wetsuits in areas where the sharks primarily feed on seals or sea lions.

Last edited by MLeake; December 14, 2011 at 12:32 PM.
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Old December 14, 2011, 12:34 PM   #20
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The way humans learn is by taking past events/experiences and compile that data which then helps us deal with a current situation.


Glenn- yup try driving a beater up in Iron Horse or even better the dominion. I (white guy) got some looks while I was driving my 50K truck in the dominion, those people get use to the vehicles that belong there, I know they don't balk at George Straights Chevy when he drives through.

Hollywood park cops are very particular too.
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Old December 14, 2011, 12:45 PM   #21
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I cannot get past the Dominion's force field - the lasers were set to destroy old Hondas with dented hoods and 256K miles on them.

San Antonio - joke.
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Old December 14, 2011, 01:01 PM   #22
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I think it's kinda funny how there are are double standards in life. If a black guy dresses like what we perceive a thug should dress like according to what we see on TV, then its their fault for dressing that way. Then why do we get our dander up when some of the black community voice their opinion about distrusting the cops when a lot of cops they see on TV/ news clips are beating up black Americans? They are getting their info from the same place we get ours. Odd.
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Old December 14, 2011, 01:28 PM   #23
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So there was a robbery. I remain of the opinion that, while there may have been sufficient justification for the initial stop, the perp was a MALE. The driver the cops thought was a male wearing a hoodie was a FEMALE. Once that was discovered, I can see no justification for what followed.
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Old December 14, 2011, 01:35 PM   #24
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I wasnt there so I can only assume, but the woman probably wasn't dressed like a thug. Also, when theyre looking for a man, and its obviously a woman, more problems. And a felony stop where the cops DIDN'T call for back up? If it walks like a duck...
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Old December 14, 2011, 02:07 PM   #25
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icedog88, black or white, or Asian, hoodies and baggy pants evoke thug. It isn't racially specific.

Skinhead tends to get more attention when worn by white teen and twenty-somethings. More of a racial factor, but not against people of color.

I'm sure if I said "dressed like trailer trash" you would also conjure an image that would fit.

Should style of dress matter? Maybe not. Does it affect how people perceive somebody? Most definitely.

Edit: in this specific case, I don't know how the woman presented aside from the hoodie, and the officer's actions seem suspect.
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