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Old December 15, 2011, 02:32 AM   #26
kinoons
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As stated, higher weight rounds carry more momentum, and all other things being equal they will penetrate more deeply.

Here is why:
http://concealedcarryforum.com/forum...TOPIC_ID=11911
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Old December 15, 2011, 03:11 AM   #27
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Isn't the golden saber a little old-school compared to the newer rounds?
Doesn't mean they still can't work ...
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Old December 15, 2011, 09:37 AM   #28
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I already chose - my P-01 is loaded with 124 grain +P Golden Sabers. My choice may not be yours or anyone else, but it works for me.
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Old December 15, 2011, 09:54 AM   #29
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C0untZer0 wrote:
Quote:
I like the 147gr better. I like that they penetrate to right around 14" and expand in the .61" to .67" range.

In general the 124gr come up a little shorter - 12" to 13" penetration, although they expand a little more - .64" to .68"
Interesting penetration results for the Golden Sabers. Brassfetecher.com did a gelatin test (funded by LopLop from TFL) using Gold Dot 124gr+P ...and came up with much better results.

http://www.brassfetcher.com/9x19mm%2...8denim%29.html
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Old December 15, 2011, 10:47 AM   #30
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what round

Golden Saber 124 grain +p
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Old December 15, 2011, 11:26 AM   #31
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that darn physics again ...

Quote:
higher weight rounds carry more momentum,
Actually the heavier rounds don't have any more momentum than the lighter ones do. Like energy, momentum is also a function of velocity. And the lighter rounds have a higher velocity (and the +p a lot higher). Unlike with energy though, the velocity is not squared in momentum (just mass x velocity) so it ends up being about a wash (where as with energy, the lighter, faster rounds win by a lot). The slower velocity of the 147's combined with their higher mass yields almost exactly the same momentum in the end.

Now your back to shoot what your gun shoots best. Many don't shoot the 147gr as well (I haven't tried those yet myself, I like the FP 124gr). The 9mm's aren't really optimized for the heavier mass and the slower velocity. But I do like the argument of being less harsh on the gun. I may give a box a try.
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Old December 15, 2011, 11:41 AM   #32
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pgdion, you are leaving out a factor or two, though probably not by design.

1) The resistance to penetration (IE drag), like energy, goes up with the square of velocity. The higher velocity round will lose momentum more quickly, as it will encounter substantially more initial drag.

2) The higher energy round will often shed more energy upon impact as heat (due in large part to the higher drag/friction effect).

3) The higher velocity round is more likely to break up a bit, depending on bullet design, and lose mass that it would have used for penetration.

Given equal initial momentum, the slower and heavier bullet will usually penetrate better.
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Old December 15, 2011, 01:12 PM   #33
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124gr +P Gold Dots in my CZ-75 right now.
I really can't tell the difference in any recoil between them and the 115gr Federal HST's I shoot a ton of.
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Old December 15, 2011, 01:45 PM   #34
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It's just a low-powered handgun folks.

The hollowpoint designs have been revised and refined so they're fairly optimized to work as intended within their respective velocity envelopes ... fired from handguns.

124gr +P or 147gr GS rounds. Toss a coin ... or pick whichever runs best in your gun, when you're the one doing the shooting.

A miss is still going to be a miss, and a perforating hit in a thin peripheral area that doesn't allow the bullet to reach critical tissues, structures and organs may not produce the results some folks might expect from studying centered hits in gel blocks.

Practice more, worry about the subtle nuances of bullet weight less. They're all selling and being used.

It's a handgun.

Worry more about the hand operating and using the gun, maybe?
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Old December 15, 2011, 02:57 PM   #35
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There appear to be two common semiautomatic handgun rounds of note. The 115 grain +P+ 9mm Illinois State Police load, and the 230 grain .45 Caliber ACP round. Anything in between is just so much useless flotsam swilling around in a toilet bowl full of turds.
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Old December 15, 2011, 03:16 PM   #36
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Quote:
There appear to be two common semiautomatic handgun rounds of note. The 115 grain +P+ 9mm Illinois State Police load, and the 230 grain .45 Caliber ACP round. Anything in between is just so much useless flotsam swilling around in a toilet bowl full of turds.
Tell us how you really feel.
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Old December 15, 2011, 08:36 PM   #37
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Quote:
Tell us how you really feel.
It was all laid bare on TRIGGERS during the second show last week when the camera recorded the impact on ballistic gel of a 38 Long Colt versus a 45 ACP. The difference was nothing short of phenomenal. Big, slow, and painful to watch even the gelatin getting hit by the forty-five. It made a believer out of me. I may get one now.

But first I have to get rid of my pissy little 357 MAGNUM.
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Old December 15, 2011, 08:40 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by secret_agent_man View Post
There appear to be two common semiautomatic handgun rounds of note. The 115 grain +P+ 9mm Illinois State Police load, and the 230 grain .45 Caliber ACP round. Anything in between is just so much useless flotsam swilling around in a toilet bowl full of turds.
Uh. Nope. Unless that is some excellent satire. Triggers is a fun show though!

.40 Speer Gold Dot 180 grain penetrates more and expands to almost the same diameter as .45 Gold Dot 230 grain
- source: tnoutdoors9, YouTube
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Old December 15, 2011, 08:59 PM   #39
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Quote:
Doesn't mean they still can't work ...
OK, I should have added a /sarc on that one.
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Old December 15, 2011, 09:35 PM   #40
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Quote:
OK, I should have added a /sarc on that one.
Figured. Wasn't sure, though.
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Old December 15, 2011, 10:48 PM   #41
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Hornady Critical Duty 135gr JHP +P....

Is it to late to add the new Hornady 135gr JHP +P? The specs/ballistics are very impressive but it has a limited # of real street shootings unlike the Speer Gold Dot or Golden Saber 9x19mm rounds.
I'd also say the bonded Remington Golden Saber 124gr +P JHP looks great for duty/defense roles. It's on sale BTW; www.discountammosales.com .

The Winchester Ranger T 127gr +P+ JHP is another top LE duty round in 9x19mm. It's for sale at www.SGAmmo.com along with the newer bonded type +P T series Ranger load(another pistol round I'd spend $ for).

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Old December 15, 2011, 11:16 PM   #42
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All handguns are defensive weapons that are massively compromised and always weapons of last resort.

Choose whatever HP bullet you like. They're pretty much all the same in real life. Youtube videos of geeks shooting denim covered Jello would argue against this of course.
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Old December 15, 2011, 11:45 PM   #43
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The BFD crowd & the What's the Diff Gang...

I disagree to a point about the "hey, so what" crowd or the BFD remarks.

You don't have to be a "morgue monster" or "Jello Junkie" but if you plan to carry or deploy 9x19mm rounds for concealed carry or duty(armed security, PI, protective service, corrections) then it's important to make a smart pick.

Or at the least a choice you could explain in a formal criminal investigation or civil suit if required.
Use of force incidents don't have Hollywood endings where every point or issue is resolved & no one has any other problems/legal disputes.

CF
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Old December 15, 2011, 11:54 PM   #44
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Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by secret_agent_man
There appear to be two common semiautomatic handgun rounds of note. The 115 grain +P+ 9mm Illinois State Police load, and the 230 grain .45 Caliber ACP round. Anything in between is just so much useless flotsam swilling around in a toilet bowl full of turds.
Uh. Nope. Unless that is some excellent satire. Triggers is a fun show though!

.40 Speer Gold Dot 180 grain penetrates more and expands to almost the same diameter as .45 Gold Dot 230 grain
- source: tnoutdoors9, YouTube
I would also add the the .40S&W is now the most common LEO round in America, right between the typical 9mm and .45acp loads.
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Old December 16, 2011, 12:01 AM   #45
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Quote:
All handguns are defensive weapons that are massively compromised and always weapons of last resort.

Choose whatever HP bullet you like. They're pretty much all the same in real life. Youtube videos of geeks shooting denim covered Jello would argue against this of course.
Essentially every expert and LEO disagrees with both of your conclusions. Handguns are the first defense (after avoidance) of most LEOs and they carry 9mm, .40S&W or .45acp rather than, say, the much lighter .380acp because of 100 years of field experience. There is a vast difference in terminal knock-down factors of the various rounds, both in theory and in practice. Consider a .22LR HP v. a large bore magnum JHP -- you can't possibly consider them to deliver equivalent stopping power.
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Old December 16, 2011, 12:01 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ak2323 View Post
All handguns are defensive weapons that are massively compromised and always weapons of last resort.

Choose whatever HP bullet you like. They're pretty much all the same in real life. Youtube videos of geeks shooting denim covered Jello would argue against this of course.
Respectfully, some of those "geeks" like tnoutdoors9 spend a lot of their time and money trying to help the shooting community choose quality products, and a lot of us appreciate it.

Most likely, hollowpoint selection won't make a difference. But it might. And might could mean my life. So I will do extensive research on my carry rounds. To each their own.
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Old December 16, 2011, 06:56 AM   #47
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Use Both.

Carry two 9's. Load 124s in one gun, load 147s in the other. Try using both guns on the BG(s) and let us know what works better. If you're limited to 1 gun then 'Ducth Load' the magazine; 1st rd is a 124, 2nd rd is a 147, 3rd rd is a 124, 4th rd is a 147 ect ect ect...
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Old December 16, 2011, 08:01 AM   #48
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Quote:
There is a vast difference in terminal knock-down factors
Oy vey. [resists urge to explain basic physics w/r/t 'knock down'...]

Quote:
Consider a .22LR HP v. a large bore magnum JHP -- you can't possibly consider them to deliver equivalent stopping power.
I certainly can. Many professionals in rather unsavory lines of work use small caliber pistols. A .22 deliered to the temple or the base of the skull has 'knock down' power equivalent to .50bmg round.
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Old December 16, 2011, 12:13 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ak2323:
Oy vey. [resists urge to explain basic physics w/r/t 'knock down'...]
Yeah, I gotta resist the urge, too.

The idea that a bullet launched at any realistically attainable velocity can knock a person to the ground merely through its own action violates Newton's Third Law of Motion.

Some people will "get it", some won't. Not much we can do about that.
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Old December 16, 2011, 01:36 PM   #50
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Quote:
Most likely, hollowpoint selection won't make a difference. But it might. And might could mean my life. So I will do extensive research on my carry rounds. To each their own.
Amen.

I'll take it a step further though. I have done a bit of informal testing with different bullets. It isn't scientific, but it compares a, b, and c against each other.

The bullet you choose can make a difference. On average I have seen Remington GS get about 40% to 50% more penetration and 12% - 15% more expansion than Hornady Custom. To me that is a big enough difference to make one much more desirable over the other.

Carrying the wrong round can negate the advantages of your chosen caliber. If you're carrying a 9x19 that gets the same result as a 9x17 Speer Gold Dot, what is the point of the larger gun with more recoil?

Ammo choice can ensure that you get the most from the caliber you carry. If you're going to carry a given caliber you might as well maximize the performance. Like Law said, "might could mean my life." So, I might as well get the best I can.
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