The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old December 12, 2011, 07:04 PM   #26
Bartholomew Roberts
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 12, 2000
Location: Texas and Oklahoma area
Posts: 5,669
Quote:
At that point, their take on what should constitute a crime may have a sudden shift...
My take is, and will continue to be, that Mexican carrying a condition 1 "safe-action" style pistol with no manual safeties is negligent. If you are a 25+ year veteran and a police supervisor, I just cannot fathom how you could not know this was not an acceptable practice.

Had there been some compelling reason to take that risk - a possible robbery in progress for example, I could cut the guy some slack. As it is, it looks like he just engaged in a stupid practice that not so long ago killed a father in front of his children. If he gets a misdemeanor out of it, that is really a long way from the worst outcome of what he did.

Quote:
Drivers kill people in preventable accidents, and get reamed in civil court, yet typically they do not face criminal records or jail times.
Drivers in non-injury accidents routinely receive Class-C misdemeanors here in Texas (tickets/fines). If you injure or kill someone, you can not only be charged with higher level offenses, you can be arrested right there on the spot and taken to jail. I don't know where you are at; but I'm betting that drivers that kill or injure people end up with criminal records there too.
Bartholomew Roberts is offline  
Old December 12, 2011, 07:10 PM   #27
MLeake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
Drivers in Florida and Georgia only seem to draw criminal charges when: intoxicated; racing; traveling at speeds defined by statute as reckless; running red lights; or if they leave the scene.

A driver in FL put my dad in the hospital with damaged disks in his neck and back via an unsafe merge onto I-4. He then left the scene. A Samaritan followed the guy, who exited, re-entered opposite direction, and was pulled over by FHP while rubber-necking. Because he was stopped adjacent to the scene, he was not even charged with leaving...
MLeake is offline  
Old December 12, 2011, 07:23 PM   #28
K_Mac
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 15, 2010
Posts: 470
Quote:
And yet you could fail to maintain adequate following distance on a wet road, fail to get enough traction, and rear-end a stopped car - yet not draw criminal charges unless the state decided you weren't only too close, but reckless. Drivers kill people in preventable accidents, and get reamed in civil court, yet typically they do not face criminal records or jail times.
In this example the driver doing the rear-ending would be cited for too fast for conditions, failure to have his vehicle under proper control, or some similar charge. He would be fined accordingly; and, if someone was killed or injured and there was any evidence of recklessness or negligence he would be charged accordingly.

Quote:
And yet I feel we as a nation tend to overcharge and/or criminalize way too many things. This is especially true when guns are involved.
MLeake I agree that the guy was stupid. While we would probably agree on many of the things Government should stay out of, carrying a weapon in a way that puts others at risk is reckless. When guns are involved we have have the responsibility of doing everything right. When we don't we endanger ourselves and others, and we give the knotheads in Government reason to clamor for more control. Peace.
__________________
"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Benjamin Franklin

"If you let "need" be a requirement and Government be the arbiter of that "need", then Liberty is as dead as King Tut." Jimbob86
K_Mac is online now  
Old December 12, 2011, 07:31 PM   #29
kraigwy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 16, 2008
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 9,434
Quote:
How to make a 642 or 442 trigger cycle in holster-less pocket carry:

Forget a house or car key in that pocket, then insert gun. That'll do it.

I have more then one pocket. One is just for my 642. I have other pockets for the other junk.

I started the pocket carry when I was in LE. That was Anchorage and being Alaska, it got nippy in spots. We had Parka's and even though they had a zipper side to get to the gun, everthing hung up. So I started carrying a snubby in my parka pocket. (nothing else in that pocket). I figured it worse came to worse I could shoot from the pocket and if I felt the need, I kept my hand in my pocket. No one knew I was "ready". No one saw the revolver.

The same thing, only now its my pants pocket. Nothing to hang up on, and nothing to catch the trigger.

I don't ask others to do this, but I've been doing it for nearly 40 years and ain't shot my self yet.
__________________
Kraig Stuart
CPT USAR Ret
USAMU Sniper School Oct '78
Distinguished Rifle Badge 1071
kraigwy is offline  
Old December 12, 2011, 07:40 PM   #30
K_Mac
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 15, 2010
Posts: 470
Quote:
Some folks might want to get off the high horse long enough to consider that someday it might be them, remote though the possibility may seem, that screws up.

At that point, their take on what should constitute a crime may have a sudden shift...
So what is your point? If I negligently discharge a weapon at the mall I will accept the consequences.

I am not advocating jail time for the good Sergeant. A fine and disciplinary action seems reasonable to me.
__________________
"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Benjamin Franklin

"If you let "need" be a requirement and Government be the arbiter of that "need", then Liberty is as dead as King Tut." Jimbob86
K_Mac is online now  
Old December 12, 2011, 07:51 PM   #31
MLeake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
A misdemeanor carries the potential for up to one year of jail time in most states; in some states, it could be up to three years in jail.

This is different from a fine or disciplinary action, don't you think?

If Wisconsin wanted to suspend his CCW, or his department wanted to put him on rubber gun duty pending remedial training, that wouldn't bother me. Misdemeanor charges are excessive.
MLeake is offline  
Old December 12, 2011, 08:26 PM   #32
K_Mac
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 15, 2010
Posts: 470
Would a year, or even three in jail be excessive if someone had been killed? Yes, in this circumstance that would be excessive, and that is why there is flexibility in the system. I understand you're not happy with the system, and sometimes I'm not either, but until something better is found I'll take my chances with this one.
__________________
"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Benjamin Franklin

"If you let "need" be a requirement and Government be the arbiter of that "need", then Liberty is as dead as King Tut." Jimbob86
K_Mac is online now  
Old December 12, 2011, 08:32 PM   #33
Kevin Rohrer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 19, 2010
Location: Medina, Ohio
Posts: 507
This is an excellent example of why pistols need manual safeties and why the 1911 is still the safest one out there after 100-years of use.

Moral: if you carry a pistol that doesn't have a manual safety, carry it in a secure holster. Revolvers are safer due to ther heavier trigger and passive safeties, but you still have to be careful w/ them.

DVC
__________________
Member: Orange Gunsite Family, NRA--Life, Varmint Hunters' Assn., ARTCA, American Legion, & South Cuyahoga Sportsmen's Assn.

"Gunnery, gunnery, gunnery...all else is twaddle!" --Admiral Sir John Fisher, RN
Kevin Rohrer is offline  
Old December 12, 2011, 08:41 PM   #34
C0untZer0
Junior member
 
Join Date: April 21, 2011
Location: Illinois
Posts: 4,555
^ HK P7 is safer than a 1911 or BHP, IMO.

I had a Colt Mustang and my wife's purse had a pocket that fit it perfectly, I packed it for her for a business trip - loaded it and put the safety on and zipped it in it's pocket, when she came back I took it out of the pocket and the manual safety was off - flipped down.

It didn't discharge, but it was a lesson to me that even though that purse compartment fit the Mustang perfectly - the gun needed a holster.
C0untZer0 is offline  
Old December 12, 2011, 10:08 PM   #35
Pvt. Pyle
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 18, 2011
Posts: 116
Protect your dick wear a mic.

Perfect holster for this type of pistol with this type of carry.

This guy overlooked something when he walked out the door with a gun that operates the way it does, carrying the way he was.

Just a good thing no one was seriously injured.

This guys superiors should give him a wood gun like on The Other Guys.
Pvt. Pyle is offline  
Old December 12, 2011, 10:31 PM   #36
Niantician
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 4, 2005
Location: Ct.
Posts: 467
Can one of the posters who pocket carries without a holster explain why? A Nemesis pocket holster costs less than $20, it breaks up the outline of the gun, it protects the trigger, as well as most of the rest of the gun, it keeps the gun oriented in the proper direction for drawing, and it keeps your pockets from wearing out.
__________________
There are many things in life that are out of my control. Recoil isn't one of them.
Niantician is offline  
Old December 12, 2011, 11:11 PM   #37
kraigwy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 16, 2008
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 9,434
Quote:
Can one of the posters who pocket carries without a holster explain why? A Nemesis pocket holster costs less than $20, it breaks up the outline of the gun, it protects the trigger, as well as most of the rest of the gun, it keeps the gun oriented in the proper direction for drawing, and it keeps your pockets from wearing out.
I can't speak for others. I tried pocket holsters and never found one that suited me. It created more bulk, and looked like something weird.

I carry my 642 in my pocket (without anything else) and it looks no more bulky then my keys, pocket knife, and pocket watch in my other pocket. In fact if you notice it at all, just looks like junk like the other pocket.

I have had a problem with it "shifting" The always sets the same way where when I put my hand in my pocket, I get the grip.

Its fast too, faster then any holster I've tried. I can get it out pretty quick. I don't draw or use it on public ranges, I only shoot it in my back yard range, just in case some one gets nervous.

If I diside to shoot a match with my 642 I use a belt holster.

The only problem I've had in the last, almost 40 years, with this method is, a couple times while in the shower my wife forgets and grabs my pants and heads toward the washing machine without checking the pockets. Now she pretty much leaves my pants alone until I empty the pockets and toss them in the hamper.

When I use holsters I've found them inconvient, taking them off in the evening 'n such. My pocket revolver is always with me, I hang my pants on the beadpost at night keeping it handy.

Not saying pocket carry is for everyone, it just the way I do it.

OH by the way. I was at our club meeting tonight and someone had a Glock. I dry fired it a bit and its not quite like my 642. I would never carry a glock without a holster. The trigger is a bit different, not even considering the size.
__________________
Kraig Stuart
CPT USAR Ret
USAMU Sniper School Oct '78
Distinguished Rifle Badge 1071
kraigwy is offline  
Old December 13, 2011, 12:35 AM   #38
jimbob86
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 4, 2007
Location: All the way to NEBRASKA
Posts: 6,776
Quote:
I don't ask others to do this, but I've been doing it for nearly 40 years and ain't shot my self yet.
I bet Sgt. Shotdafloor said something similar...."I been dong this 25 years and I ain't shot myself yet."

By the Grace of God, sez me.


"Yet."

Maybe you won't ever have an ND. kraigwy..... but you go touting your ability to carry sans holster and someone a bit less ..... "disciplined" ...... about keeping a pocket just for the gun will read that and say, "Kraigwy can do it- hell, he makes his own guns, he must kow what he's talkin' about.... and now we have some newb that thought he was an aspiring Kraigwy and was really just another Plaxico...... only the foot he puts a bullet through is as likely to be some bystander's as it is his own...... it ain't smart, so don't condone it.
__________________
TheGolden Rule of Tool Use: "If you don't know what you are doing, DON'T."

http://nefirearm.com/
jimbob86 is offline  
Old December 13, 2011, 09:02 AM   #39
Deja vu
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 14, 2010
Location: Border of Idaho & Montana
Posts: 2,132
My grandfather carried for 66 years in the pocket with out a holster and never had any problems. He said he did not like how the holsters felt. He has now passed so I guess it is possible to not use a holster and never have an accident.

I carried for 11 years with out a holster and no incidents. It wasn't until I got a holster (as advised by this forum and my wife) that I ever had a problem. The stiff leather did not allow my shirt to move away from the gun when re-holstering it and the gun went off, Fortunately I was on my own land and no one got hurt (other than my pride).

I have switched holsters
__________________
Shot placement is everything! I would rather take a round of 50BMG to the foot than a 22short to the base of the skull.

all 25 of my guns are 45/70 govt, 357 mag, 22 or 12 ga... I believe in keeping it simple
Deja vu is offline  
Old December 13, 2011, 09:41 AM   #40
Skans
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2008
Posts: 7,827
I don't see the big deal of carrying without a holster - so long as the gun is appropriate for the clothing you are wearing. I might have an objection if someone attempts to carry a Desert Eagle in the pocket of his jogging shorts.
Skans is offline  
Old December 13, 2011, 10:30 AM   #41
Kevin Rohrer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 19, 2010
Location: Medina, Ohio
Posts: 507
I carry a J-frame revolver in my (inexpensive but servicable) Mika pocket holster for 3-reasons:

1. It breaks-up the outline of the gun.
2. It keeps the muzzle from poking a hole in the bottom of my pocket.
3. It keeps the hammer from getting caught in the pocket and interfering w/ my draw.
__________________
Member: Orange Gunsite Family, NRA--Life, Varmint Hunters' Assn., ARTCA, American Legion, & South Cuyahoga Sportsmen's Assn.

"Gunnery, gunnery, gunnery...all else is twaddle!" --Admiral Sir John Fisher, RN
Kevin Rohrer is offline  
Old December 13, 2011, 10:44 AM   #42
Bartholomew Roberts
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 12, 2000
Location: Texas and Oklahoma area
Posts: 5,669
Carrying without a holster can be done safely. My grandfather used to carry a single-action revolver in his pocket. Perfectly safe because it was a single-action and the hammer was down. You can carry the S&W M&P involved in this incident in condition 3 with no holster and it will be every bit as safe (and probably a bit safer from a drop safe perspective).

What you can't do without creating a much higher risk of negilgent discharge is carry a safe-action pistol in Condition 1 with the trigger exposed.
Bartholomew Roberts is offline  
Old December 13, 2011, 10:45 AM   #43
9ballbilly
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 19, 2008
Location: northeast Florida
Posts: 435
Gotta kick my two cents in guys.

I do sometimes carry my S&W 4006 .40cal tucked in the back of my pants with no holster. This is a comfortable way for me to carry this gun, however mine does have a safety and it is always on when I carry in this fashion. I've done this for sixteen years without incident.
9ballbilly is offline  
Old December 13, 2011, 11:03 AM   #44
TailGator
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 8, 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 1,985
I don't carry without a holster, but I no longer have a handgun suitable for doing so, either. In defense of kraigwy and others who make a considered and well-informed choice to carry in that manner, there is a whole heap of difference between the triggers of various revolvers and pistols. When I had a 642, I occasionally carried in that manner, but I wouldn't consider doing so with my Glock 26. Understanding the capabilities and limits of a given firearm seems to me to be much more valuable than making blanket statements.

My concern with the story in the OP is that it leaves the appearance that the officer was either misinformed, made poor decisions, or was too casual in his considerations and handling. I have a hunch that this may have been a case in which gun handling became so routine that it became thoughtless, which is something we would all do well to guard against.
TailGator is offline  
Old December 13, 2011, 12:27 PM   #45
kraigwy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 16, 2008
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 9,434
Quote:
"Kraigwy can do it- hell, he makes his own guns, he must kow what he's talkin' about.... and now we have some newb that thought he was an aspiring Kraigwy and was really just another Plaxico......
Well in that case, I guess I wont discuss my days when I use to "run with scissors or talked to the bus driver when the bus was in motion"
__________________
Kraig Stuart
CPT USAR Ret
USAMU Sniper School Oct '78
Distinguished Rifle Badge 1071
kraigwy is offline  
Old December 13, 2011, 12:55 PM   #46
MLeake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
kraigwy, sorry, I wasn't trying to make a bad guy out of you. I was just pointing out that what may be a no-no to some may be ops normal to others; and that in the absence of statute or case law to the contrary, lack of a holster or safety does not in and of itself equal criminal negligence. I used you as an example of a reasonable, respected person.
MLeake is offline  
Old December 13, 2011, 01:10 PM   #47
aarondhgraham
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 1, 2009
Location: Stillwater, OKlahoma
Posts: 7,075
The issue isn't about holsters or not,,,

In my mind the issue is that the man allowed his gun to go out of his immediate control and a bad thing happened as a result of it.

This line of the statute applies here,,,
"Endangers another's safety by the negligent operation or handling of a dangerous weapon"

One can waistband carry for years and if nothing ever happens then negligence never happened.

But in this case something bad did happen,,,
So I think a charge is completely valid.

Mleake made a point that I am in some agreement with,,,
We may have become a society too eager to lay blame and deal out punishment.

In that light I will not call out for him to be hung out to dry,,,
But some sort of punitive sanction should be applied towards him.

The charge could just be "Stupid in Public",,,
He should not however be allowed to get off scott free.

Aarond
__________________
Caje: The coward dies a thousand times, the brave only once.
Kirby: That's about all it takes, ain't it?
Combat: "A Silent Cry"
Aarond is good,,, Aarond is wise,,, Always trust Aarond! (most of the time)
aarondhgraham is offline  
Old December 13, 2011, 01:14 PM   #48
TexasJustice7
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 10, 2011
Posts: 213
Quote:
Kraigwy: I pocket carry my 642 without a holster. I tried ever way from Sunday to get it to fire (empty of course). Just don't see it. Not with a 642 anyway.
I pocket carry my S&W 642 airweigh too, but I have a Charter Arms holster
I bought for less than $20 for my CA Bulldog. I only use the CA holster for
the S&W and the Bulldog in a Galco paddle hoslter. My 642 has no hammer
or reclused, so I don't believe one like mine can go off from being dropped.
That CA holster works really well when I draw the gun, it stays in the pocket
because of the material its made out of. I don't think the guns accidentally
going off are revolvers, unless they are old ones.
TexasJustice7 is offline  
Old December 13, 2011, 01:28 PM   #49
Rj1972
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 16, 2010
Posts: 129
I don't think anyone has mentioned it, so I will. We keep talking about holster or not here (which i'm a fan of), but there's one more thing worth repeating. While it's not 100% clear that this happened, there's enough evidence to think it MIGHT have been the case that he caught the gun while it was falling.

Quote:
As he reached for the weapon, it went off, blowing a hole through his pants.
Most of us already know it, but don't catch that falling gun. It's infinitely more likely to go off if you catch it than if you just let it hit the floor.

If that's not quite what happened then so be it, but I'll throw that out there anyway.
Rj1972 is offline  
Old December 13, 2011, 01:59 PM   #50
Onward Allusion
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 17, 2009
Location: IN
Posts: 1,734
The only way a semi-auto should ever be carried in a pocket w/o a holster is if the chamber is empty.
__________________
"With great power, there must also come great responsibility." - Stan Lee

"All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke
Onward Allusion is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:47 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.12990 seconds with 7 queries