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Old December 14, 2011, 01:13 PM   #76
secret_agent_man
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Is that behavior within the scope of a Terry stop? No
Then you are conducting an illegal search. Any evidence of illegal activity subsequently found cannon be used against the motorist so stopped. You may be able to make this kind of stop all day and all night, proning people out with guns in their ears, but you will never get a conviction that will stand. What's the use?
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Old December 14, 2011, 02:11 PM   #77
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Well, gentlemen.. I'm going to have to play devil's advocate here.

I would agree with wagonman. He's NOT talking about searching someone's car, NOT talking about walking up and yanking someone out of their car without reason, he IS talking about HIS situational awareness and the surprise introduction of a gun into the scenario...

Quote:
No but it is when I see a weapon that I don't know about on a traffic stop.

Seems reasonable to me. I wish everybody CCWed, let's just be adult about it.
Sadly most people now a days if NOT restrained would get into a "let me explain, it's my right, I'll get you fired " argument with a gun drawn on them and reach for a license or make some other move that would lead to a more tragic event.

If a person did not disclose your CC-License, and more importantly their possession of a weapon and while fumbling for insurance, registration, ect.. a gun happens to peep out, then yes, for the officers safety it is more important that the person is restrained until the situation can be assessed and clarified. That's why it would be easier to start at the point of notification and work forward than to end up on the ground and work it back.

His actions of pulling someone out of the car and detaining them would "seem reasonable" to me too until he can assess his safety and they safety of the individual.

I always present my DL and CCL, then I EXPECT any LEO to ask IF I am carrying. If he doesn't BEFORE I move my hands to reach for anything I make him aware that I am carrying and what it is I am reaching for.
I think of others safety but I put MY SAFETY First. Sounds a bit over done but I'm not taking the chance of a rookie leo panicking and the vet leo's appreciate it.
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Old December 14, 2011, 02:17 PM   #78
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secret_agent_man, you are thinking about evidence gathering and admissibility. The LEO is thinking that most LEOs shot in the line of duty get shot during routine traffic stops; IE he isn't "investigating," he is making sure he goes home after his shift.
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Old December 14, 2011, 03:11 PM   #79
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I think the safe bet is to notify anywhere. Whether or not you have to I wouldn't really care. I'd view it as a courtesy and also think it might get you out of the ticket. It's pretty much a certified good guy card.
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Old December 14, 2011, 03:13 PM   #80
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It's pretty much a certified good guy card.
This.^
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Old December 14, 2011, 03:16 PM   #81
secret_agent_man
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he isn't "investigating," he is making sure he goes home after his shift
I see what his objective is, and I fail to see how that justifies a search by police that is illegal under the Fourth Amendment.
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Old December 14, 2011, 03:32 PM   #82
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s-a-m, there is the world that is, and there is the world we would like there to be. You do what you want.
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Old December 14, 2011, 04:22 PM   #83
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Disclosure is not required here in Virginia.

Nevertheless, I keep my permit in my wallet immediately behind my driver's license so that if I am stopped for an alleged traffic violation I will present the DL with the CCP obvious to the officer.
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Old December 14, 2011, 04:23 PM   #84
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watch out for windmills
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Old December 14, 2011, 05:04 PM   #85
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Disclosure is not required here in Virginia.

Nevertheless, I keep my permit in my wallet immediately behind my driver's license so that if I am stopped for an alleged traffic violation I will present the DL with the CCP obvious to the officer.
Which is smart because as soon as they run your lic they will know you have a permit. It is on your lic file in VA.
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Old December 14, 2011, 05:09 PM   #86
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It's pretty much a certified good guy card.
I once had a cop who could not have been over 25 lecture me on how the DW CBOB I was carrying cocked and locked was dangerous. He insisted on taking possession of it and but had no idea of how to unload it. I had to get out of the car drop the mag, thumb the safety off and clear the gun.

IMHO that is simply not true. I have been pulled over maybe 6 times in 10+ years of having a CHP. Some officers do not give it a second thought. Some however have a huge chip on their shoulders. This cop had no clue but because he wore a badge he assumed that he i was right.

Quote:
You mean those guys who are sworn to uphold the law? I'm sorry, but I see those guys as my peers (even my employees in an indirect sense). I respect them and will support them doing their job, but do not fear them or feel compelled to offer them information about myself that they do not need to know or have a right to know under the law.
Spacecoast is spot on with this post.
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Old December 14, 2011, 05:15 PM   #87
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anyone know about Pennsylvania? I can't find anything listed on Pa's gun laws
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Old December 14, 2011, 05:30 PM   #88
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While I'm sure there are smart-a$$ know-it-all LEOs out there, I've been lucky enough to not ever meet one professionally (there is this guy I see from time to time, socially, who is a LEO, a dumb-a$$, and a jerk but I don't know if that carries over to his job or not).

I have been stopped maybe 15+ times in my life (which may not be as often as it seems as I am getting on in years).

Never had any hassle about carrying and have always been treated professionally, with respect, including well before TX had a CHL law, and I've been carrying, for the most part, since before I had a driver's license.

I've never had a LEO act like he thought I should be afraid of him/her.

Hope it stays that way, but mostly, will hope for no direct interaction .

W
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Old December 14, 2011, 05:36 PM   #89
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I typically don't mention it unless I feel it is going to be an issue. For example if they ask me to step out of the car, I would say something. Although that's never happened to me.

I've worked with a lot of law enforcement individuals over the years, and while 99% of them are rational and decent, there are a couple of wackos with badges and guns. And the nuts don't wear a different color uniform (maybe they should).

Bottom line, if they don't need to know, I don't bring it up.
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Old December 14, 2011, 05:45 PM   #90
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I have a MO ccw permit. If I am traveling in MO and stopped by a State Patrolman I don't have to say anything because they have the MULES system which will pull up my info when they run my plate (before they ever approach the vehicle).

If I am going to be traveling in another state, I will know their rules and abide by them if a stop occurs.

If I am traveling in IL, I will NOT be carrying inside the vehicle and I will NOT (definitely NOT) disclose my permit status to the LEO. In fact, I have a MO non driver ID which lists my ccw status. I will hand an IL LEO my regular driver's license which does not show that I am a permit holder.

There have been several documented cases where LEO's in IL have searched the vehicle just because they knew the driver was a ccw permit holder. Therefore I just avoid the hassle.
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Old December 14, 2011, 05:49 PM   #91
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I go a step further,,,

Quote:
There have been several documented cases where LEO's in IL have searched the vehicle just because they knew the driver was a ccw permit holder. Therefore I just avoid the hassle.
I just avoid the state entirely!

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Old December 14, 2011, 05:50 PM   #92
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boostedtt91
anyone know about Pennsylvania? I can't find anything listed on Pa's gun laws
According to Handgunlaws.us in Pa you do not have to inform.
http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/pennsylvania.pdf

Very top of the page.
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Old December 14, 2011, 05:56 PM   #93
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There have been several documented cases where LEO's in IL have searched the vehicle just because they knew the driver was a ccw permit holder. Therefore I just avoid the hassle.

I just avoid the state entirely!

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Old December 14, 2011, 06:10 PM   #94
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IL searching cars

Cowboy Mo- Il LEOs searching a car because of a CCW permit. What's up with that? Any idea.

On the other hand I believe much about what goes on with traffic stops has to do with the totality of the circumstances.
Why were you stopped? Something obviously being or seeming out of place prior to or during the stop.
What time?
Where?
I've stopped numerous cars in my career because of an erratic move not everyone was drunk or high or involved in any type illegal action other than their operation of the vehicle. I would approach the vehicle after the stop, print it and at the drivers shoulder say something along the lines of "evening, morning I'm ------- with------ I stopped you because of the way you swerved into the other lane and jerked back (or whatever reason) is everyting okay? I've had responses from spilled some hot coffee on my crotch, my thong is riding up, their was a wasp in here, I was trying to make junior put the frog down and on and on and I've locked a good many drunks too.
Any officer that doesn't approach a vehicle during a traffic stop in a high state of alertness should not be approaching a vehicle. If they can't do that they should go home.
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Old December 14, 2011, 07:00 PM   #95
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This whole subject is like a bad penny that keeps turning up.

I don't like "suprise" guns on a traffic stop. Traffic stops are a very dangerous place for cops. I appreciate being told about the gun and just tell people not to put their hands near the gun. I ask for their pistol permit and make sure they are legit to own the gun, then send them on their way.

I would never ticket somebody just because they didn't tell me, but I have let people go because they did. Take that for what it's worth.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-U6Q9oJ4WpI

Routine traffic stop, turns into a shooting.

Cops see a gun they are not told about, they are going to be concerned for their safety.
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Old December 14, 2011, 07:22 PM   #96
secret_agent_man
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Cops see a gun they are not told about, they are going to be concerned for their safety.
Can't deny them that, but they must stay within the confines of the law, lest they become canon fodder for NBC DATELINE.
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Old December 14, 2011, 07:23 PM   #97
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I would never ticket somebody just because they didn't tell me, but I have let people go because they did. Take that for what it's worth.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-U6Q9oJ4WpI

Routine traffic stop, turns into a shooting.

Cops see a gun they are not told about, they are going to be concerned for their safety.
....Seriously?

This isnt about shooting at a LEO. This is about whether a LEO can drag a citizen out of their vehicle at gunpoint for not informing if in a state where he/she isn't legally obligated too. Why you dragged that video into this conversation I do not understand. It was nothing but inflammatory and completely off-base.
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Old December 14, 2011, 07:29 PM   #98
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I dragged the video in because it shows why cops are concerned for their safety on a traffic stop. Didn't think that was confusing.

Trust me, every cop on earth wants to stay off NBC for doing something wrong. Me too. But I also want to go home at night, and bad things happen during traffic stops, see video above. Taking a traffic stop, and then throwing a gun into the mix, that maybe you thought they would never see, or would never know about, and bad things "can" happen. I don't want to get shot, even if I am "right" and it was all a mistake.
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Old December 14, 2011, 07:42 PM   #99
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I am concerned about my safety every time I step up to an ATM or visit the walmart...its why I carry. But I didn't bring it up.

My point is that, while they may reasonably be concerned for their safety, that doesn't give every LEO carte blanche to drag a citizen out their vehicle at gunpoint at the sight of a gun. Especially in states where it is legal to openly transport a handgun provided it is visible or concealed in a holster...and where there is no duty to inform. Like Virginia. Must make law enforcement a real bear of job to have to work in a state like this.
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Old December 14, 2011, 07:46 PM   #100
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It didn't confuse me.

Quote:
....Seriously?

This isnt about shooting at a LEO. This is about whether a LEO can drag a citizen out of their vehicle at gunpoint for not informing if in a state where he/she isn't legally obligated too. Why you dragged that video into this conversation I do not understand. It was nothing but inflammatory and completely off-base.
Seriously? At what point did anybody advocate 'dragging a citizen out of their vehicle at gunpoint for not informing'? The whole issue was revolving around what an officer might do, or could do legally, if a person was reaching for papers of some sort and toward a gun. Whether the gun is legal or not is not really the issue. The absurd stupidity of reaching for or toward a gun the cop had no idea was there is the point. Ordering someone to get out of a vehicle is not "dragging" them out. Insuring their own safety is not an infringement on your rights. Exactly what right does a person have to make a move toward a weapon while have a discussion with a cop about a ticket or a flat tire or something? Please explain this right to me.
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