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Old December 12, 2011, 11:29 AM   #51
taurus4life
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Quote:
I really dont see its any of their business anyway, as the issue isnt the gun, but my driving
if i was an officer ,a gun in a car seems like i would want it to be my business. not every one is a law abiding citizen.
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Old December 12, 2011, 01:28 PM   #52
secret_agent_man
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don't get upset when I put my weapon in your ear then prone you out on the pavement
Is that behavior within the scope of a Terry stop?

This is reminiscent of a time when the police considered possession of a handgun by even honest citizens to evidence of criminal intent, whether there was a law against it or not.

Last edited by secret_agent_man; December 12, 2011 at 01:53 PM.
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Old December 13, 2011, 07:59 AM   #53
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"For me that would mean digging in the glove box across the bench seat of the truck. I would think that would be an excellent way to make an officer jumpy. I kill the engine, turn on interior lights, keep my hands where they are, and awaite my instructions.

These guys deal with enough scum and bs. I figure it is good to make their lives easier and let em know from the start Im a good guy. I dont do drugs, dont drive if ive had too many, and generally do nothing illegal so i have zero to hide. I just dont see a point in holding back."

1), I'd rather dig in the glovebox and have my hands stationary and visible when they arrive, rather than have to dig when they're at the window.

2) Just because you don't have something to hide does not mean you will be treated that way. I did not have anything to hide and had to spend some very stressful minutes anyways. Some have ended up having a gun pointed at them, been cuffed, had their car searched, or been detained all for disclosing a legally carried gun when they have nothing to hide.

I have no ill intent for any officer. If I don't tell them about a gun -- legal in my state -- I have nothing to gain except headaches by informing.
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Old December 13, 2011, 10:46 AM   #54
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What can it hurt?

It's likely always best to disclose the permit first, and then the weapon. Most LE personnel will tell you that; Whether or not your State has a disclosure law. Being right won't keep you from being shot. Being forthcoming will.
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Old December 13, 2011, 04:32 PM   #55
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It's likely always best to disclose the permit first, and then the weapon. Most LE personnel will tell you that; Whether or not your State has a disclosure law.
You mean those guys who are sworn to uphold the law? I'm sorry, but I see those guys as my peers (even my employees in an indirect sense). I respect them and will support them doing their job, but do not fear them or feel compelled to offer them information about myself that they do not need to know or have a right to know under the law.
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Old December 13, 2011, 06:34 PM   #56
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I've done my best to carefully orchestrate my traffic stop procedure, though thankfully, I have not had an opportunity to put it into practice as of yet. I'm not required to notify here in CO, but I figure that anything I can do to make a traffic stop less stressful likely won't hurt. However, if I'm stopped on the street and ID is demanded, that's a different story entirely...but I digress.

Anyway, both my DL and my CCW are in a thin leather bi-fold that I carry in my back pocket. When I get in the car, I drop it in the center console cup holder, where it's plainly visible. My other vehicle docs are in a plastic envelope tucked under the passenger side visor. When stopped, and after confirming that the person walking up behind me is a legitimate LEO, my plan is to wait with both hands visible at the top of the steering wheel, interior light on at night, with the driver window down. When asked to produce my information, I'll verbally inform the officer where each item is before slowly reaching for and handing them over. Neither place should look like I'm reach for anything concealed and there's no digging around involved. Upon seeing the CCW, if the officer wants to know where the handgun is, I'll tell him.
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Old December 14, 2011, 01:38 AM   #57
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. Is that behavior within the scope of a Terry stop?
No but it is when I see a weapon that I don't know about on a traffic stop.

Seems reasonable to me. I wish everybody CCWed, let's just be adult about it.
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Old December 14, 2011, 07:57 AM   #58
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I think some folks are seeking some type of confrontation.


My personal opinion is the cops are there to do a job. There are some bad apples everywhere, but i think if we are polite and dont do anything stupid

The VAST majority of LEOs are not going to create havoc for a CCWer.

If I were an LEO walking up on a car at night, and I get a jerk with an attitude I would probably be more blunt with that person, especially if he is armed and acting irratically.

We shouldnt treat an LEO as a king,........ Just with the level of respect we would all want.



The last time i was pulled over at night, I showed my DL and my CCL and
Kept my hands visible on the wheel.

He was very polite, and gave me a warning.....

Not a question asked about my weapon
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Old December 14, 2011, 08:12 AM   #59
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moose_nukelz wrote:
Quote:
While it may be your right not to notify on a traffic stop, just know that we (LEO's) do not like surprises. If you reach for your paperwork and I see a firearm you didn't tell me about don't get upset when I put my weapon in your ear then prone you out on the pavement.
And when you finally find out that I am legally carrying, don't be surprised when you and your department wind up facing a lawsuit.
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Old December 14, 2011, 08:23 AM   #60
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For what? If you reach for paperwork and the cop sees a gun near where you are reaching that he does not know about, you are certainly going to be stopped from further action until the situation is clarified. The lawsuit would be laughed out of court.
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Old December 14, 2011, 08:30 AM   #61
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Being yanked out of my car and "proned out with a gun jammed in my ear" while legally transporting a weapon would certainly be grounds enough.
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Old December 14, 2011, 08:50 AM   #62
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The basis for the suit would be what? If you were arrested and you were carrying legal that would be cause for a suit. If you were injured that would be cause. You may, MAY have cause for an official complaint or suit if the exact circumstances did not warrant getting placed on the ground. Good luck with that one. You would have nothing at all to go on regarding having the cop hold you at gun point for some period of time until the situation is made clear and safe. I can't imagine it would not involve getting you out of the vehicle.

The legal standard for the actual use of deadly force, that is actually perforating you with one or more bullets, is means/opportunity/intent. If the guy has no idea you have a gun and you reach for anything near it how is he to know you are not reaching for the pistol? This action would be just plain foolish. You have now met the bar for MEANS you clearly have a deadly weapon. You have met the bar for OPPORTUNITY, you are reaching for it (he can't possibly be a mind reader). You have not yet SAID you are going to use it, but it could be argued that reaching for it does display the intent to use it.

At any rate, any reasonable cop is going to absolutely stop further action on your part. Again, given those circumstances, the suit is a no starter. Reaching toward a weapon during a traffic stop is a ridiculous thing to do.
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Old December 14, 2011, 08:51 AM   #63
secret_agent_man
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Quote:
I think some folks are seeking some type of confrontation.
They're just interested in knowing the limits on police via the Fourth Amendment during vehicle stops in which they, the "stopee", have a gun. That's reasonable enough.
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Old December 14, 2011, 09:01 AM   #64
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???

Quote:
We shouldnt treat an LEO as a king,........ Just with the level of respect we would all want.
"Just with the level of respect we would all want." is all the respect I am giving a king ...... they did not earn that title, so it's meaningless to me. The newest deputy in our county at the very least has LE credentials.....
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Old December 14, 2011, 09:05 AM   #65
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We Americans are naturally suspicious of authority. That's who we are. So, If I'm carrying and get pulled over, it's a crapshoot, in this state, whether I get a professional or some tool who will "put a gun in my ear." If I keep my mouth shut, as is my right unless directly questioned, then chances are great that no one will be getting road dust on their clothes or gun grease in their ears.
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Old December 14, 2011, 09:19 AM   #66
Skadoosh
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The basis for the suit would be what?
Police brutality perhaps? Use of excessive force? I am sure my lawyer would come up with something that would stick.
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Old December 14, 2011, 09:29 AM   #67
AK103K
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I still dont understand what the gun has to do with you being stopped for a traffic violation. Was the gun somehow a part of it? Was it the reason for it?

Another thing I dont get, is why would you be reaching for "anything" with the cop there. Dont you already have your paperwork in hand when he gets to the window? I know I always do. Not that Im doing anything wrong, but the last thing I want to do, is visibly offer up anything else than necessary for the business at hand. Whats in the glove box or console (or whole car for that matter) is my business, none of his. Unless of course, I make it his, by "unnecessarily" letting him see something unrelated to the matter at hand, that might draw interest. Why turn "nothing", into something else?

Since many seem to be so concerned about weapons and I guess the cops safety, do you also offer up your pocket knives, any pointy tools, impact type "weapons", ect, in the car or on your person? Arent they just as scary and dangerous?


I get the impression from some of the responses, this is more about showing the cop (or anyone else) you are a "big boy" too, and are "allowed" to have a gun, than it is about anything else. If youre not required to tell them, then its none of their business, unless they, or you, make it otherwise. At that point, you have to deal with it, not before.
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Old December 14, 2011, 10:40 AM   #68
Don P
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And when you finally find out that I am legally carrying, don't be surprised when you and your department wind up facing a lawsuit
Law suit for what? Having a gun pulled on you?

Quote:
Being yanked out of my car and "proned out with a gun jammed in my ear" while legally transporting a weapon would certainly be grounds enough.
Maybe, maybe not. My opinion. Now with all this chest pounding going on about unneeded info to LE and rights and I'm going to sue, it would just be easier to inform whether its the law or not just so everyone is on the same page and prevent the above quote. You folks can pound your chest and rant about rights and info, I
I'll just inform LE if stopped. My choice.
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Old December 14, 2011, 10:52 AM   #69
Rj1972
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(by AK103K): Dont you already have your paperwork in hand when he gets to the window?
I've been wondering the same thing. When I get pulled over I have my license(s) in my hand and hands on the wheel with window rolled down before the officer gets to my door. BUT admittedly in Texas it's a little easier. I don't have to show insurance or registration because the officer looks it all up based on your license. I've had officer's tell me they don't need my insurance. Admittedly there's about a 3 second instance where the officer may see me "reach for something in my back pocket", but it's doubtful since I usually have it out of my back pocket before we're done coming to a stop.

It's also the reason why I hand them both licenses. In Texas it's required to inform, but there's no penalty to not do so. BUT when they run your license it will come back CCW and then you get to have the "well why didn't you inform, where is your gun, why are you trying to hide things etc..." conversation which I'll happily pass on.
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Old December 14, 2011, 11:18 AM   #70
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Quote:
I get the impression from some of the responses, this is more about showing the cop (or anyone else) you are a "big boy" too, and are "allowed" to have a gun, than it is about anything else.
I'm getting the same impression as well. Or maybe it's just that people are too lazy to check the law, even though it's simple to do so. As I said much earlier in the thread, I don't believe the officers' concerns (or problem children) are the folks who carry and are licensed to do so, and I seriously doubt that a decision to ticket or warn is influenced by the CCW license. So if I'm not required to inform, I won't. My choice.
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Old December 14, 2011, 11:21 AM   #71
Skadoosh
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Quote:
You folks can pound your chest
I would point out that it was the 'don't be surprised to be yanked from the car and a gun stuck yer ear' remark that was the chest pounding...
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Old December 14, 2011, 11:38 AM   #72
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+1 for Skadoosh,,,

Quote:
I would point out that it was the 'don't be surprised to be yanked from the car and a gun stuck yer ear' remark that was the chest pounding...
Not the right attitude for a public servant,,,
We citizens are not there to be "proned" for his pleasure.

The fact that he used those words in that type of statement,,,
Tells me he has the wrong attitude for the public trust.

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Old December 14, 2011, 11:55 AM   #73
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^^^^^^^ What he said.

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Old December 14, 2011, 11:55 AM   #74
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spacecoast, ak103k, et al... do what you want. As you say, it's your option.

As far as the "big boy" thing goes, give me a break.

My CCW instructor for my first license, in Florida, recommended presenting the officer with DL and CCW, even though it isn't "required" in Florida.

LEO friends of mine have recommended the same.

Massad Ayoob recommends the same. (Told me so in person, in his class.)

So, while there may be some out there who are getting their big boy jollies, I'm just following the advice given me by people whose opinions I respect. So far, it has worked quite well, in my experience and in the experiences of those I know.

YMMV. But cut the BS psychological evaluations, thanks.
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Old December 14, 2011, 01:10 PM   #75
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i dont tell them i have a gun, but i also have my licence, registration, insurance card all ready for them when they walk up. If asked to get out of the car for a search would tell them, "Im carring a,legally, consealed weapon and there are a few knives in the car, i have a emergency diabetis kit in the glove box, blah blah.." but i believe they have to ask before doing a pat down anyway.

i imagine that if its a normal traffic violation type stop ie your not running from the cops or driving eratically as to avoid the cop or whatever... that the cop may or may not see a person going through the motions of getting his documents ready so would think "oh he is getting his papers, or farting, or whatever..."

i highly doubt that most cops think "OH CRAP HE IS MOVING AROUND OBVIASLY HE IS GRABBING A GUN!!"
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