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Old December 7, 2011, 06:36 PM   #26
egor20
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Broke my leg a few years back and had to walk with a cane for about 6 months, my wife bought me a Coldsteel Blackthorn.

Nice wife, nice cane.
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Old December 7, 2011, 09:26 PM   #27
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My father, a boxer in college in the late 1920s and early 1930s, carried rolls of quarters in his pockets -- just in case.
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Old December 7, 2011, 10:06 PM   #28
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I don't carry one, but when I started in LE in the late 1980s, most officers did. I can say that, from what I've seen, they make pretty fearsome weapons.
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Old December 7, 2011, 10:58 PM   #29
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I like them as they are effective at stopping a assualt and it is a shame that they are not legal in most states.

There are a few kinds of them;

Blackjacks --- are round and mainly have a spring in the handle and have a round head with lead birdshot or a solid peice of lead for impact.

Saps ---- are flat and most have a flat spring as the handle -- heads are lead filled with birdshot or a solid peice of lead for impact.


IMHO --- Saps are much more deadly --- if you strike with the "flat edge" of a sap , you can break bones and cause deep lacerations because the impact is concentrated in a 1/4" of impact.

The round head of a Blackjack has more of a chance of glanceing or bounceing off hard bone.

EITHER WILL KILL if you are not trained in what parts of a body to strike at.

A big plus in their favor is that you can palm or have one up your sleeve and thay are GREAT as a knock down weapon.
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Old December 7, 2011, 11:37 PM   #30
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About the only thing with a more fearsome reputation than slaps and jacks is a set of nun chucks.
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Old December 8, 2011, 12:20 AM   #31
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Personally i believe a can of Fox spray is far superior. The stream can reaches out to 20 feet away and you spray someone they are done altogether. But a cane, blackjack, baseball bat or something would be good after you spray to beat the crap out of afterwards i guess. But then again afterwards the threat should no longer be so you could change from getting assaulted to being the one assaulting. Be careful
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Old December 8, 2011, 01:33 AM   #32
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I don't see a use for black-jacks or breass knuckle-type things (roll of quarters), bludgeons etc... At least not for me. And they are deadly. My friend's uncle died from being struck with pool que. He was playing for money, in a bar... you get the picture. Anyway, getting wacked over the head with anything doesn't usually work out in real life the way it does in Hollywood. The one Hollywood film that I know of that was realistic about it was the movie Thunderbolt and Lightfoot, in which Jeff bridges suffers brain damage from being pistol whipped and eventually dies. I knew a guy in the Army who was wacked in he head with a brick in Leesville - Friday night / payday, and robbed. And he was lucky to have lived through it. As it was he lost feeling and sense of taste in part of his tongue.

When Ilinois gets CCW, I'll be carrying. I think that also means I don't do stupid things like hang around in dangerous parts of Chicago, get mouthy with people in bars and common sense things like that. It means I try to avoid and walk away from situations that might escalate into violence, and descalate when I can.

But having said all that. If I've done those things and someone decides they want to perpetrate physical violence on me, I'd rather pull a gun and call the cops on my cell rather than try to slap someone silly with a black-jack.
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Old December 8, 2011, 02:07 AM   #33
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I think that everyone should carry what they are comforable with and hopefully , have had a little training in its use.

A cell phone and a CCW are not always the correct ansewer IMHO.

I like to have a "layered defense" from non-lethal on up. I almost always have a impact weapon on me as well as a edged weapon. And if I feel the need , a firearm also -- either on me or in my car.

There are 100s of situations where you can not use lethal force but where you could use a non-lethal weapon with little risk of being placed in prison.

One or two drunk jerks pushing you around on the street is not enough reason to shoot them. Useing pepper-spray , a stick , cane or other impact weapon can be a much better choice.

As to training -- Eskrima , Kali , Arnis etc. teaches the use of "sticks" -- a Sap or Blackjack is really just a short weigthed stick with a good wack to it
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Old December 8, 2011, 01:36 PM   #34
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Saw a very large dude get whupped on by two smaller guys had brass knuckles. Was very bloody. He did their sis wrong, they whupped him bad, was taken to a hospital with many broken bones in his face.

Another I served in my bar had his jaw broke same way while at a red lite. guy got out of his car and hit him once.

Very effective in stopping a person but not very legal in many states now.
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Old December 8, 2011, 03:16 PM   #35
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I often carry an asp baton, it's legal here in KY with a ccw license. Said license also covers concealed knives and other "deadly weapons". Good to have a less lethal option if a legal one is available.
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Old December 9, 2011, 10:37 AM   #36
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There is a very powerful Second Amendment lobby and voter bloc. Unfortunately, it is strictly the gun rights lobby. Legislators would get political hell for banning concealed pistols, but no one cares about the right to carry a knife.

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Old December 9, 2011, 11:31 AM   #37
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There is a kinfe rights group based in Tucson, and they are getting support from the NRA - look up Kniferights.com or .org, or find the current issue of America's First Freedom, they have an article about them.

As to using a sap on guys pushing you around, that turns you into the agressor, unless you have already tried to escape. And beating someone who is down (from pepper spray or any other reason) WILL get you charged with a felony in most places.

Pepper spray is great stuff - when it works. As an instructor, I got sprayed three (3) times before it had any effect - and even they it was delayed about 45 seconds. Had I wanted to, I could have taken the can away from the guy spraying me, and used it on him. Total time from 1st spray to any effect - about 90 seconds. As a civilian, I would say SPRAY AND RUN!
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Old December 9, 2011, 11:41 AM   #38
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As some one else stated illegal in NC. I do however still have my black jack that I carried as a police officer. With that said it does NOT leave my house.
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Old December 9, 2011, 02:39 PM   #39
secret_agent_man
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As an instructor, I got sprayed three (3) times before it had any effect
LOL, Try wasp and hornet spray. And be near a hospital emergency room when you do.
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Old December 9, 2011, 02:47 PM   #40
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Pepper spray is less lethal, the substances you suggest could easily prove lethal. If you want to go that route, Oven Cleaner is reported to work well.
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Old December 9, 2011, 03:30 PM   #41
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I sound like a total nerd, I'm sure, but I never liked sprays. As far as I'm concerned, the old Ninja Metsubushi is better. (Blinding Powder.) Far more illegal, but better. Some consisted of salt, crushed glass, sand, pepper powder, and mixes of them all. I've been sprayed, and I'm sure we've all had something gritty in our eyes. Instead of waiting for a chemical to take effect, a physical substance is always better, in my opinion. Though they have to have their eyes open enough to get it in, flinch responses aren't helpful here.

Knife rights are often overlooked, and too often are they considered weapons. I understand some circumstances, such as courtrooms and airlines, but when a 3.5 inch fixed blade is illegal to open carry, it's ridiculous.
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Old December 9, 2011, 03:31 PM   #42
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Oven Cleaner is reported to work well.
Oven cleaner contains lye.

Get that in your eye and you will be permanently blind until the corneal transplant (if you are lucky and the damage is not deep).

THE CORNEA BECOMES OPAQUE.

It attacks the cornea and permanently damages it, and can penetrate into some of the deeper structures of the eye.
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Old December 9, 2011, 03:48 PM   #43
Bartholomew Roberts
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LOL, Try wasp and hornet spray.
Not to pick on the OP, who appeared to be making a side comment and not a suggestion; but I've seen several people suggest that wasp and hornet spray is a good substitute for pepper spray.

The problem with this is that wasp and hornet spray is basically nerve agent. It has a high probability of killing or seriously injuring someone, meaning it is the same as "deadly force" in most places. So legally, you could only use wasp and hornet spray in self-defense if you would be justified in shooting them in that same scenario.

Pepper spray on the other hand is generally recognized* as being non-lethal force and can be used in situations where deadly force cannot.

*Check your state laws. YMMV
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Old December 9, 2011, 04:02 PM   #44
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The bug sprays have a high probability of affecting you - if used inside. Happens to folks who foolish use it in the house on a bug. Also, there are specific laws against such in some places.

Also, if you blind someone deliberately - you will not be looked upon kindly if you had other options and / or the situation is ambiguous. Just IMHO.

Because, blinding is seen as worse than shooting someone. Strange, isn't - but that was the rationale behind banning laser blinding weapons.
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Old December 9, 2011, 04:41 PM   #45
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There's a collapsible baton in the wife's van and a fiberglass sledgehammer handle in my truck. They're my first line of defense in a sudden attack. Easily accessible...as long as you are in or near the vehicle. Not sure if that's legal...don't really care. The perpetrator that attacks me is not going to check local and state laws before attacking. He'd probably be glad I whipped his @$$ with those other than shooting him.

I carry too much other crap in my pockets to try to carry something to smack a bad guy or spray him with too.
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Old December 9, 2011, 05:34 PM   #46
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The other issues with pepper sprays, saps, batons, etc. are:

1. Have you had training with them? Misused, they can cause "disproportionate injury".

2. If you carry a sap, but shoot someone, the prosicutor WILL ask you why you did not just hit them with your sap/spray/baton. Heck, in some areas they still ask why you didn't "just shoot the gun out of his hand?", or "just shoot him in the leg?" This only complicates your defense that you were acting to save your life.

That is, in most states, deadly force may be used only to prevent death or serious bodily harm (in at least one state, [New York?], it was held at one time that rape was not a crime of serious bodily harm - ask your wife/girlfriend/daughter what they think.). If you are not at risk of D/SBH, they you may only use "proportionate force". Now your attacker says all he had was empty hands, and you hit him with a lead sap - "no fair'.

Just being the 'devils advocate' here, you understand. This is why I strongly advocate the 'Nike defense' - RUN AWAY!
I will attempt escape until I can justify the use of deadly force - I'm not in LE any more, and have no duty to apprehend, nor do I have to deal with those who are not threatening my life, or the life of another. It all depends on what you can articulate to justify your actions.
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Old December 9, 2011, 05:59 PM   #47
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I honestly think a gun is a better option.

There are many many cases of people beaten to death with nothing but the assailant's fists and feet(shoes/boots). A case here in Chicago where a man was nearly beaten to death arguing about the Cubs versus White Sox. He went blind in one eye and was in a coma for a while.

You really have no way of knowing if someone is just going to punch you in the face and leave or if they going to punch you in the face , and proceed to try to beat you to death.

I believe in most cases, the violence de-escalates when you draw a gun. Unless you are an idiot and a jerk and start waving it around and doing stupid things. If you pull it and call 911, or exit the situation or all three - I think it de-esclates the violence.

One thing that I would think about if I'm tussling with a BG, is "Does he have a knife", and "Does he have a gun?"

I really would rather not be trying to wack someone, or slice them and have them pull a gun.


So you get into a confrontation with some jerk, because he hates your baseball team, he takes a swing at you, you wack em with your blackjack, he pulls a knife, you pull a knife, he pulls a gun and now he's holding a gun on you while your's is in your IWB holster and suddenly you get that feeling "DOH!"

I would rather do it this way

Jerk wants to punch me in the face because my St. Louis Cardinals beat his Texas Rangers, he takes a swing at me, I backpedal while putting my left hand up telling him to stop - "I don't want any trouble", if he continues the attack I draw my pistol. If he stops, I call 911 and file a report for assault. If he decides to attack me even though I have a gun, I'm going to fire.

Just my opinion...
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Old December 9, 2011, 06:46 PM   #48
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If someone is just swinging at me, I'm not likely to back pedal. C0untZer0, there's a lot to be said about your specific scenario. One, he takes a swing and you back pedal, he is more likely to get a more powerful hit in at a distance. A push into his attack is more likely to keep you safe (punching 6 inches in front of you isn't as powerful, and a knee to the groin would be easy here). Two, his second attack isn't likely going to be the same as the first. Three, you don't know it could be lethal, adding a weapon into it increases your chances of getting hurt.

You said you'd rather not club or slice someone for swinging at you thinking they may pull a gun. At the distance you'd be, roughly the same as you would be if you were drawing, you'd have a good chance of stopping his draw, but you'd still be in the wrong. In all of this, empty hand skills and interpersonal skills would result in less legal trouble.
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Old December 9, 2011, 07:09 PM   #49
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I'm assuming the interpersonal skills have already failed at that point.

If you don't have time to draw a gun, you don't have time to arm yourself with a black-jack either.

If, for whatever reason I'm not going to easily be able to draw, then unarmed combat is what it is...
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Old December 9, 2011, 07:16 PM   #50
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I really would rather not be trying to wack someone, or slice them and have them pull a gun.
If you do it right first, that is the end of the fight.
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