The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old December 7, 2011, 09:13 AM   #1
Wyn
Member
 
Join Date: May 15, 2008
Posts: 70
Does anyone carry a blackjack or sap?

Just wondering if anyone carries a blackjack or a sap? I have one and wonder if I should be carrying it or leaving it in the car in case i need it? Just wondering. Thanks for reading.
Wyn is offline  
Old December 7, 2011, 09:25 AM   #2
TexasJustice7
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 10, 2011
Posts: 213
Quote:
Does anyone carry a blackjack or sap?
A concealed weapons permit in Texas does not make it legal to carry a blackjack or sap. If caught with one it would be a problem. I just stick to my guns myself.
TexasJustice7 is offline  
Old December 7, 2011, 09:26 AM   #3
Rifleman1776
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 25, 2010
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 3,309
I carry one in my truck. I turned it myself from Osage Orange.
Even though, at age 73, I don't need a cane I have made myself a couple. One has a 1" hickory shaft and an antique brass horse hame tip. The tip is quite heavy and would dent a bowling ball. I figure a 70+ year old man using a cane would not be questioned. Actually, I'm pretty healthy and agile. Someone mess with me or family they will get a rude awakening just before I put them to sleep.
Rifleman1776 is offline  
Old December 7, 2011, 09:29 AM   #4
rantingredneck
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 12, 2007
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 4,728
Illegal here.........
__________________
NRA Member
NC Hunter's Education Instructor

PCCA Member (What's PCCA you ask? <- Check the link)
rantingredneck is offline  
Old December 7, 2011, 09:31 AM   #5
twobit
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 25, 2010
Location: Coyote Creak, SW Texas
Posts: 573
It is also illegal in Texas to have one in your car. As mentioned, the Texas Concealed Handgun license only applies to a HANDGUN, not a baton, sap, club, illegal knife, sword,..... check the Texas Penal code chapter 46 for weapons regulations.
If you are in another state, I don't have a clue as to what is legal there
__________________
Twobit,
LEO, NRA member, Native Texan. Shooting and hunting for over 49 years!
twobit is offline  
Old December 7, 2011, 10:02 AM   #6
C0untZer0
Junior member
 
Join Date: April 21, 2011
Location: Illinois
Posts: 4,555
Illegal in Illinois.


It is a UUW, and if convicted it will cost you your FOID (no longer able to rent a range, purchase ammunition, or purchase firearms in Illinois).
C0untZer0 is offline  
Old December 7, 2011, 10:21 AM   #7
9ballbilly
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 19, 2008
Location: northeast Florida
Posts: 435
Illegal here in NY.
9ballbilly is offline  
Old December 7, 2011, 10:51 AM   #8
k511
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 1, 2010
Location: Oregon
Posts: 461
god i love Oregon..... i keep the blackjack in my truck, and the wife has an asp in her car.....along with the revolvers of course..
k511 is offline  
Old December 7, 2011, 11:13 AM   #9
Lee McNelly
Junior member
 
Join Date: June 9, 2011
Posts: 325
Getting up in age are we

You might be in need of a good cane or walking stick

SINCE I CANT UPLOAD TO THIS SYSTEM TRY COLD STEEL.COM FOR CANES AND WALKING STICKS A NICE IRISH ONE WOULD BE IN ORDER EVERY GOOD AMERICAN GENT NEEDS ONE

Last edited by Lee McNelly; December 7, 2011 at 11:19 AM.
Lee McNelly is offline  
Old December 7, 2011, 11:50 AM   #10
brickeyee
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 29, 2004
Posts: 3,342
Illegal in Virginia.

All a permit covers is a concealed handgun.

http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...0+cod+18.2-308

Quote:
§ 18.2-308. Personal protection; carrying concealed weapons; when lawful to carry.

A. If any person carries about his person, hidden from common observation, (i) any pistol, revolver, or other weapon designed or intended to propel a missile of any kind by action of an explosion of any combustible material; (ii) any dirk, bowie knife, switchblade knife, ballistic knife, machete, razor, slingshot, spring stick, metal knucks, or blackjack; (iii) any flailing instrument consisting of two or more rigid parts connected in such a manner as to allow them to swing freely, which may be known as a nun chahka, nun chuck, nunchaku, shuriken, or fighting chain; (iv) any disc, of whatever configuration, having at least two points or pointed blades which is designed to be thrown or propelled and which may be known as a throwing star or oriental dart; or (v) any weapon of like kind as those enumerated in this subsection, he shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor. A second violation of this section or a conviction under this section subsequent to any conviction under any substantially similar ordinance of any county, city, or town shall be punishable as a Class 6 felony, and a third or subsequent such violation shall be punishable as a Class 5 felony. For the purpose of this section, a weapon shall be deemed to be hidden from common observation when it is observable but is of such deceptive appearance as to disguise the weapon's true nature.
brickeyee is offline  
Old December 7, 2011, 11:56 AM   #11
sgms
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 30, 2010
Location: Arizona or Ohio depending
Posts: 780
Stick with a cane, they are legal everywhere. I carry a cane made to support up to 500 lbs. that has a solid brass ball as a handle. It is heavier than a standard cane(as expected) and is a standoff weapon that most punks do not know to deal with. It will out reach a knife, break bones, even kill if used forcefully enough. It will also allow you to clear enough space to draw your gun or in arms reach fights keep your attacker from grabbing your gun. It is important to learn some stick fighting or police riot baton use to be effective.
sgms is offline  
Old December 7, 2011, 12:14 PM   #12
C0untZer0
Junior member
 
Join Date: April 21, 2011
Location: Illinois
Posts: 4,555
Illinois list black-jack specifically, but also with the general term "bludgeon"

(720 ILCS 5/Art. 24 heading)
ARTICLE 24. DEADLY WEAPONS


(720 ILCS 5/24‑1) (from Ch. 38, par. 24‑1)
Sec. 24‑1. Unlawful Use of Weapons.
(a) A person commits the offense of unlawful use of weapons when he knowingly:
(1) Sells, manufactures, purchases, possesses or
carries any bludgeon, black‑jack, slung‑shot, sand‑club, sand‑bag, metal knuckles or other knuckle weapon regardless of its composition, throwing star, or any knife, commonly referred to as a switchblade knife, which has a blade that opens automatically by hand pressure applied to a button, spring or other device in the handle of the knife, or a ballistic knife, which is a device that propels a knifelike blade as a projectile by means of a coil spring, elastic material or compressed gas; or .....

a billy club, other weapon of like character, or other instrument of like character intended for use as a weapon. For the purposes of this Section, "billy club" means a short stick or club commonly carried by police officers which is either telescopic or constructed of a solid piece of wood or other man‑made material.

A person convicted of a violation of subsection 24‑1(a)(1) through (5), subsection 24‑1(a)(10), subsection 24‑1(a)(11), or subsection 24‑1(a)(13) commits a Class A misdemeanor.



I don't think it's the misdemeanor that's the problem per se but because it is a weapons related charge - you lose your FOID.

I also think it disqualifies you from some non-res CCW permits. I recall seeing a question on some of the forms asking if you'd ever been convicted of a weapons charge -maybe its the PA aplication (can't remember).


.
C0untZer0 is offline  
Old December 7, 2011, 12:16 PM   #13
aarondhgraham
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 1, 2009
Location: Stillwater, OKlahoma
Posts: 7,160
I've been known to carry a walking stick on occasion,,,

Way back in time,,,
When dinosaurs ruled the earth,,,
I was an up and coming karate student.

Enter the Dragon had just came out,,,
We were all begging Mr. Chan to teach us to use "chucks".

His response was, "Why learn a weapon you can't carry?"

"Bummer" we all thought.

Instead he taught us lots of great techniques,,,
Using a simple walking stick/cane.

Interestingly enough when I left Korea and came back stateside,,,
I found what he had taught us was so very similar to LAPD baton techniques.

So if you can get used to carrying a walking stick,,,
They are a very capable weapon with very little training,,,
Besides, they be dashing and you too can stroll like Bat Masterson.

Aarond
__________________
Caje: The coward dies a thousand times, the brave only once.
Kirby: That's about all it takes, ain't it?
Combat: "A Silent Cry"
Aarond is good,,, Aarond is wise,,, Always trust Aarond! (most of the time)
aarondhgraham is offline  
Old December 7, 2011, 12:20 PM   #14
C0untZer0
Junior member
 
Join Date: April 21, 2011
Location: Illinois
Posts: 4,555
I wouldn't want to have a blackjack in my hand when the BG pulls a gun.
C0untZer0 is offline  
Old December 7, 2011, 01:54 PM   #15
Wyn
Member
 
Join Date: May 15, 2008
Posts: 70
I had a friend who used to drive a cab in New York City in the 50's and 60's. He used to take alot of fares to 125th St. and the Harlem area. One of the favorite places to go was Minton's Jazz Club. He used to carry a blackjack to protect against drunks and unrulys. He said one time a fare got in his cab and demanded the money from the night. He wallopped him with the blackjack and he went stumbling out of the cab and took off. He was very pleased with its results. I wonder why with so many states banning them why they still make them. Blackjacks and saps are easily found for purchase.
Wyn is offline  
Old December 7, 2011, 01:55 PM   #16
secret_agent_man
Junior member
 
Join Date: March 25, 2011
Posts: 463
All manner of common hand held weapons such as knives, saps and jacks, clubs, etc. are legal under the Second Amendment and the body of natural law which predates it.

But mountains will have to be moved before the above is stare decisis.
secret_agent_man is offline  
Old December 7, 2011, 02:08 PM   #17
Patriot86
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 23, 2010
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 1,293
Quote:
sand‑bag
I will make sure to never carry a sand bag in Illinois, I guess I will just cart them around insted.
Patriot86 is offline  
Old December 7, 2011, 03:37 PM   #18
C0untZer0
Junior member
 
Join Date: April 21, 2011
Location: Illinois
Posts: 4,555
^ I think we're OK with regular sandbags - like emergency levy sandbags.

It's the kind you can hold in your hand and swing like a black-jack that I think this applies to.

But I wouldn't put it past a Chicago cop to arrest someone under this statute for having an actual sandbag.
C0untZer0 is offline  
Old December 7, 2011, 04:06 PM   #19
Patriot86
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 23, 2010
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 1,293
What about a bag of rocks? Rocks are not sand
I like to say if a cop is looking for a reason to arrest you, he will find one 100% of the time.

I do love how old-timey some of our laws are here in Illinois.

I wish I COULD carry a black jack or some kind of collapsible baton. Short of CC coming to Illinois id rather have one of the two over the pocket knife I carry right now.
Patriot86 is offline  
Old December 7, 2011, 04:29 PM   #20
Sleuth
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 27, 2002
Location: Arizona
Posts: 445
I asked the Assistant AG of California why carrying a handgun was a misdemeanor (at the time), but a sap. club, etc. was a felony. He said it dated back to when "silent means of attack" were used to Shanghi sailors in San Francisco!

Back in 19 mumble-mumble, when I started in Law Enforcement, I was issued a sap, and told "NEVER use it!". Why? Because we were always hitting each other on the backswing! It's still around here someplace - I never did even carry it.

And the difference between a cane and a sap is the difference between a lever action .44 mag rifle and an AR 15. One is "normal" that a judge or jury might have at home, the other is ""evil"".
__________________
Sleuth
Sleuth is offline  
Old December 7, 2011, 05:08 PM   #21
BlackFeather
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 12, 2009
Location: West Coast
Posts: 450
I've never been fond of the Sap or Blackjacks. My instructor in the course I've been taking is a former LEO and he absolutely loved his Blackjack.

I DO have a pair of Sap Gloves, they are marvelous things in my opinion. I'd like to get some fingerless ones soon, when I get back to Oregon. They provide padding for your hand while the weight helps follow through on the punch. Never had to use them, but they keep my hands warm in the winter...
__________________
"Today is victory over yourself of yesterday; tomorrow is your victory over lesser men." - Miyamoto Musashi

[Insert random irrelevant religious quote here]
BlackFeather is offline  
Old December 7, 2011, 05:31 PM   #22
markj
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 27, 2005
Location: Crescent Iowa
Posts: 2,969
Quote:
Sap Gloves,
Seen em with lead in the knuckle area. old school cops had these and my Uncle (det) carried a sap made of leather and had birdshot in it.

Iowa permit is for carrying weapons, didnt ask about non firing ones tho.
markj is offline  
Old December 7, 2011, 06:22 PM   #23
Sleuth
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 27, 2002
Location: Arizona
Posts: 445
One of the issues with saps is they are generally 'soft' or with the lead mounted on a spring, so all you can really do with them is hit. I also have in my pile of ""stuff" a slapper, wich is a stiff sap than can be used to prod someone. I never carried that either.

And in AZ, it is a 'concealed weapon permit', no firearms listed. In theory, I could carry a Thompson subgun under my coat and be legal. We regulate the person, not the tool.
__________________
Sleuth
Sleuth is offline  
Old December 7, 2011, 06:28 PM   #24
briandg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 4, 2010
Posts: 1,847
For a lot of years, I carried a standard CO2 cartridge that I had poured full of lead. It wasn't quite a pound, but it added quite a bit to my punch.

Due to bad knees and back, I sometimes use a walking stick that has about 3 ounces of lead beneath a heavy pewter cap. It would crush a skull.
briandg is offline  
Old December 7, 2011, 06:33 PM   #25
Bartholomew Roberts
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 12, 2000
Location: Texas and Oklahoma area
Posts: 5,717
From a legal perspective, I think it would be very easy to cross the line into "deadly force" using a sap or blackjack, particularly if you didn't have training in the use of such a weapon.

If I am going to use deadly force, I'd much prefer to use a ranged weapon as opposed to a contact weapon; but canes and the like do have a big advantage of being readily available and relatively innocuous in parts of the world where firearms would be a problem.
Bartholomew Roberts is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:47 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.13086 seconds with 7 queries