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Old January 31, 2012, 09:56 AM   #76
pax
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Let me repeat my first point for those who missed it: if you open carry and have no training in gun retention skills, especially if you carry in a regular, non-retention holster, you are in Condition White.

Having your head on a swivel does no good when it's simultaneously up your nether regions.

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Old January 31, 2012, 11:37 AM   #77
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I didn't need that image, Pax - yuk!

But it's a good point. I think some folks overestimate their situational awareness and how you can get crowded in real life.
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Old January 31, 2012, 12:56 PM   #78
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Lots of Serpa hate. Odd, I carried them for three tours without an issue. I did practice a lot though. I'd never even heard of people shooting themselves with them till now (although you do get the occasional ND). I think blaming the equipment is kind of like blaming a motorcycle for getting into crashes.

Wearing a gun openly is kind of like wearing lots of bling. Someone will see it eventually and want to snatch it. The results unfortunately are much more fatal.
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Old January 31, 2012, 01:07 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pax
"Having your head on a swivel does no good when it's simultaneously up your nether regions."
That needs to be a sig.
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Old January 31, 2012, 02:56 PM   #80
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It's easy to say that training trumps bad equipment design but that is a cliche that denies years of human factors work on errors. Bad design facilitates errors.
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Old January 31, 2012, 03:15 PM   #81
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Every possible comment has already been made except the most obvious.

Me thinks too many have gone ahead and secured a concealed carry license for all the wrong reasons. then have further compounded the problem by deciding to open carry. Gun control proponents are always looking for more support for their arguments and those who carry in public either openly or concealed are in the position to supply or deny fuel to those arguments.

Law enforcement officers are required to carry, Private citizens are not. therefore you have moral requirement to be virtually perfect in your approach, training and commitment to guarantee your choice to carry won't be turned into a vote for gun control.

Let me say in advance I'm sorry if this offends anyone, it's not my intention.
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Old February 8, 2012, 12:37 AM   #82
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Definitely a fear of mine about open carry.

It's very hard to have a constant state of vigilance on all quarters 100% of the time when open carrying and your age can make you a target if you are older and look physically an easy target to strong arm a gun away from you.

A warning story to all of us to stay aware and alert to threats working their way towards us at all times.

Concealed carry,open carry or unarmed too.
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Old February 8, 2012, 10:56 PM   #83
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Being armed can sometimes give one a false sense of security leading one to relax in a place they'd otherwise be alert.
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Old February 9, 2012, 12:24 PM   #84
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Irish, I don't follow your reasoning. What is the right reason?

Please explain your cryptic message.

I am against open carry. That has been beat to death at least twice in this thread.

I will say it;

A back up gun may have afforded the victim some assistance, but considering that his Ooda loop was compromised when he was attacked there was likely nothing aside from outside intervention that could have saved him.

I cannot tell you how many cops I have seen flash their gun around when in plain clothes. Feds seem to be the worse. With the exception of one faux paus 25 years ago, no one has ever made me carrying off duty.
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Old February 9, 2012, 01:46 PM   #85
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I tend to agree with Irish. It is my opinion that some just want to show that they have and can carry a gun.
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Old February 9, 2012, 04:52 PM   #86
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Quote:
Me thinks too many have gone ahead and secured a concealed carry license for all the wrong reasons. then have further compounded the problem by deciding to open carry. Gun control proponents are always looking for more support for their arguments and those who carry in public either openly or concealed are in the position to supply or deny fuel to those arguments.

Law enforcement officers are required to carry, Private citizens are not. therefore you have moral requirement to be virtually perfect in your approach, training and commitment to guarantee your choice to carry won't be turned into a vote for gun control.

Let me say in advance I'm sorry if this offends anyone, it's not my intention.
No offense taken, but there is no way that I am going to carry a gun based on what somebody else perceives as being right or wrong in regard to the political issue of gun control. That issue could not be further from my mind when it comes to determining what I carry, how, and when. I will carry in whatever manner I see fit that his legal and is salient to my needs.

Quote:
It is my opinion that some just want to show that they have and can carry a gun.
Interesting. In other threads where folks have open carried as a demonstration of their 2nd Amendment rights, the people are heralded as patriots...carrying a gun just because they can...
http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...y+obama+speech
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Old February 9, 2012, 05:16 PM   #87
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Quote:
the people are heralded as patriots
Never heard that from me, I say conceal it so no one knows you got it. Take the element of surprise out of the equation and you got nothing on your side.

I too belive a lot of young folk do this to show off or say I am armed and a dangerous person. Until it is taken away and used against them.

I would really worry about that if I opened carried in public.
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Old February 9, 2012, 11:58 PM   #88
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I can see some, limited, value in open carry just as the exercise of a right. Rights are like muscles, in a way - they tend to atrophy if never exercised.

However, if it's done, it should be done in a discreet, non-threatening, and AWARE manner.

For myself, I only open carry, if at all, in rural/woodland settings, where I'm not concerned about public perceptions but might be concerned about things surprising me. (Then again, if I lived in an area where OC was not only legal, but "normal," I might change my mind in hot weather.)

Open carry allows a faster draw, and more comfortable clothing selection, especially where larger handguns are concerned.
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Old February 15, 2012, 01:38 AM   #89
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Having fast access to your weapon is important, but as crowded as this world is, it makes me nervous when people brush up against me in a line. I tend to favor a Blackhawk Serpa holster with the push-button retention. It is less likely someone can take my weapon from me. I also tend to drop an elbow on top of it when close to others. Some practice with a friend can help one learn some retention methods too. Just be sure you weapon is unloaded during practice. I have seen people practice these techniques with an Airsoft BB gun too. That way it is as real as can be and still be safe.
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Old February 15, 2012, 01:50 AM   #90
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and this accounts for like 0.01% of Open carriers, how many cops get their guns taken and how many open carriers get guns taken?

*note bad part of town
*after dark
*bad holster?

Maybe tyler was too young to apply for a ccw permit, I know thats why the younger guys carry in states allow open carry, no permit 21 waitting around.

We could change the topic to, "states need to lower CCW age to 18 so things like this wouldn't happen"

Some people don't get permits also due to the fact "government data base" paranoide.

A few more weeks I can apply for my permit and I know I will be done(for the most part) with open carrying, rarely I will do it.
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Old February 15, 2012, 07:48 AM   #91
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Maybe tyler was too young to apply for a ccw permit, I know thats why the younger guys carry in states allow open carry, no permit 21 waitting around.
As the first post pointed out, Tyler was 48yrs old - and still apparently lacked the judgment, awareness and skills necessary to open carry.
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Old February 15, 2012, 11:31 AM   #92
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Sending a Message - But Which One?

I have always seen OC - the optional kind, not LEOs or others required to OC - as making a statement. Maybe it's standing up for 2A or trying to shock people, maybe it's a testosterone thing, maybe it's an old guy advising the world he still should be feared. It could be a lot of things, but if we're talking about optional OC - when concealed carry is also a legal option - I will always believe the OC'er is trying to send a message. To me, advertising that i carry a gun is antithetical to my reasons for carrying.

There are certain potential advantages to OC, but to me they are outweighed by the disadvantages. I only do it around the house or out in the woods - when i am virtually assured of being alone. Everywhere else, it's concealed, and i won't ever trade away that advantage. A gun coming out of nowhere, in the hands of someone previously perceived as a victim, or shots fired from a coat pocket - is EXACTLY what i want to accomplish if i ever have to use lethal force in self-defense. I hope i never do but if so, i want the element of surprise on my side, or if surprise is lost because my SA failed me, i want the potential ability to regain it that OC doesn't offer. Just like a karate master doesn't wear his blackbelt out into the world, my firearm will remain out of sight unless i truly and urgently need it.

Growing up in an era where a fistfight settled even serious disagreements, now it seems inner-city style murder for nothing has invaded every quiet suburban area throughout the country. Today it seems reasonable to me for any law-abiding citizen to carry for self and family defense reasons, but i believe the need is even stronger for women and older citizens, who are logically and statistically more likely to be selected as victims. I still contend CC offers the greater advantages. It could even be argued that an otherwise attractive victim with an openly-carried pistol might be viewed by a thug as an easy source of a free gun.

What we really need are more shall-issue states and national reciprocity. John Lott shows pretty clearly the link between shall-issue laws and a marked decrease in violent crime in More Guns, Less Crime. If criminals can't tell WHO might be carrying, they perceive greater personal risk in attacking anyone. But until violent crime drops to zero, or until all law-abiding citizens carry, I won't be advertising.
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Old February 16, 2012, 01:43 PM   #93
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I have always seen OC - the optional kind, not LEOs or others required to OC - as making a statement. Maybe it's standing up for 2A or trying to shock people, maybe it's a testosterone thing, maybe it's an old guy advising the world he still should be feared. It could be a lot of things, but if we're talking about optional OC - when concealed carry is also a legal option - I will always believe the OC'er is trying to send a message. To me, advertising that i carry a gun is antithetical to my reasons for carrying.
I totally agree. Nearly every civilian I've met who open carries does so either to make a political point or to draw attention to themselves.

No thanks.
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Old February 17, 2012, 09:08 AM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glenn E. Meyer
Thus, strapping on a Serpa without much, much practice (and does Oscar Open-Carry do that) is a tad risky.

Thus, strapping on a gun without much, much practice (and does Oscar Open-Carry do that) is a tad risky.

Fixed it for you.

Some equipment can make the act of carrying more risky. However, you imply that the SERPA holster singlehandedly makes carrying a gun risky. Carry was risky before any particular holster design, it still is today, and it will still be a risky act long after certain holsters and other equipment have long faded from our memories.

As long as you have a gun, there's a criminal or politician out there that wants it and will take it given the opportunity.

It's the act of carrying that is risky, though certain practices and equipment choices may compound that risk in certain situations.

There's an active thread on SERPA holsters in T&T.
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Old February 17, 2012, 11:15 AM   #95
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No, I was making a specific point that Serpas may have an affordance that leads to an ND. It is argued by some that this problem may be solved by practice with where to put your finger.That's a debate from the human factors literature. Practice doesn't solve everything but some gun folks suggest that.

It does go against other literature.

Thus, OC in general has risks - an untrained person with a Serpa adds to that.

If you want my opinion that folks who carry should be trained - of course. Should it be the law - that's another thread.
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Old February 17, 2012, 12:10 PM   #96
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Open carry may be practical while hunting but in my opinion, it's a form of exhibitionism when done in public. Try as you might, no one can stay in Condition Yellow, all the time, without interruption. Open carry should only be done by people fortunate enough to have a third eye in the back of their heads. And yes, the street-savvy thugs, with long rap sheets, in the big cities will have you disarmed and begging for your life in short order.
In a rural environment I have no problem with open carry. Indeed it is (or was) legal to carry long guns in most regions of Texas, and when I grew up, every pickup had a shotgun or rifle in the rack. Its good for snakes and varmints of either the four or two legged variety. In an urban or suburban setting though, to me thats an invitation to trouble.
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Old February 17, 2012, 01:08 PM   #97
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I have always seen OC - the optional kind, not LEOs or others required to OC - as making a statement. Maybe it's standing up for 2A or trying to shock people, maybe it's a testosterone thing, maybe it's an old guy advising the world he still should be feared. It could be a lot of things, but if we're talking about optional OC - when concealed carry is also a legal option - I will always believe the OC'er is trying to send a message. To me, advertising that i carry a gun is antithetical to my reasons for carrying.
I completely agree!
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Old February 17, 2012, 09:39 PM   #98
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On the rare occasions when I've open carried, I've been hunting or hiking. Guess I was making a statement to the wildlife... at the time I just thought I was going for comfort and convenience.

While I am sure many open carriers are "making a statement," I'm equally sure that several of those launching the verbal assault on open carriers and their motives are "projecting."
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