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Old December 8, 2011, 03:34 PM   #51
nate45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackFeather
So, if I have my license to carry a firearm on duty as a security guard, I'm doing something stupid?

Nate45, what is a credible system?
I was referring to civilians, not LEOs, or others required to openly carry. You take a risk when you put on a uniform and a gun, thats part of the job.

However, be aware there's nothing preventing someone from launching a surprise attack on you, or anyone for that matter.

There are many credible self defense systems. At the core of all of them is the idea that avoidance is your first line of defense. Civilians are under no obligation to enter into dangerous situations, or arrest or detain any individual. They also aren't required to OC.

I have no idea what your duties and obligations as a security guard will entail. If you will be required to defend life and property with deadly force, you better know what you are doing. Weapon retention should be apart of that knowledge, as should situational awareness. When you are going home and stop at the quickie mart, an attempt to take your weapon could happen.
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Old December 8, 2011, 03:42 PM   #52
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On decoys

Years ago, I heard about a Texas Ranger who, when working in some situations would open carry a single action 45 Colt, unloaded. His primary piece was concealed in a shoulder holster.

The sight of a Texas Ranger, traditionally armed seemed to help in most situations.

Perhaps a little off-topic or not applicable in all situations, but I was reminded. There is more than one way to skin a cat.

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Old December 8, 2011, 04:25 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nate45
There are many credible self defense systems. At the core of all of them is the idea that avoidance is your first line of defense. Civilians are under no obligation to enter into dangerous situations, or arrest or detain any individual. They also aren't required to OC.
It may be splitting hairs to some people, but Martial Arts and Self Defense systems are indeed different. Your other post mentioned Martial Arts, now you say Self Defense. Avoidance is always the key to self defense, but in Martial Arts you train to fight, defensively and offensively.

You're right, Civilians are under no obligation to enter dangerous situations, or detain anyone. As an armed guard one is really no more than a civilian agent of the property owner. So I have no real obligation, in most cases, to arrest anyone or enter a dangerous situation. The reason one carries is for defense, working a high end casino that could be robbed, I may need to use the gun to defend myself, but why enter a fire fight for money? The Casino likely has a lot of insurance, and will likely have them on camera.

So the reason I'd be carrying is for a higher paying job. Open carry for a higher paying job, is that a poor decision?

I'm not trying to start an argument, and I hope my words don't come across as such. I am really just looking for opinions. Aside from the Martial Arts, I know everything there.
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Old December 8, 2011, 05:19 PM   #54
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No, I didn't get my terminology mixed up. Avoidance includes not getting jumped by surprise, no matter when.

You say offense, offense against whom? How do you fight offensively when you're unconscious or dead?

I'm not against open carry, or trying to talk anyone out of doing it, or taking a job that requires it. I'm just saying it has the potential to make you a target.
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Old December 8, 2011, 07:35 PM   #55
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When you open carry except during hunting, the bad guy or guys have to be right only one time. Nobody is in condition yellow 100% of the time. While it may deter some inexperience criminals it will however inspire some seasoned criminals and situations like this may occur.

We make assumptions that most criminals are very stupid and I bet to differ because the criminal has the upper hand because his intensions are very clear and he has scouted his surrounding and has targeted his prey. By carrying open you have provided the criminal with some options and he has the upper hand again because he has nothing to lose but you do.

Concealment is the way to go because you want to provide the element of surprise should the need arises while maintaining vigilant at all times. Even our well trained and capable Navy Seals go into battle using the element of surprise. They do not advertise themselves to the enemy. Open carry tells the criminal I'm in your way of committing any criminal activity and it makes sense when they want to eliminate the obstacle i.e. you.
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Old December 9, 2011, 11:34 AM   #56
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Remember?

Police officers really have no choice but to open carry. Anyone remember the 1960s and early 70s? Black Liberation Army? At the time, NYPD carried their wheel guns in open top leather Jay Pee holsters, exposed to the elements. The holster came apart during a gun grab and felons refined and practiced their disarming techniques while in prison. Two sets of NYPD officers murdered were Foster and Laurie, then Jones and Piagentini. There were others.

This is the era that led to retention holsters, enhanced materials, steel reinforcement and handgun retention exercises and training. At the time, I knew several officers who carried their wheel guns with empty shell casings in them and a Browning Hi-Power concealed in a shoulder holster. The Hi-Power was the only high capacity auto available.

If young, uniformed police officers working high crime areas can be successfully disarmed, the open carry CCW will fare no better. Incidentally, one major reason for not carrying cross-draw is that the butt and grip face your adversary during a confrontation.
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Old December 26, 2011, 06:06 AM   #57
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I'll have to agree with the general sentiment that, although I support the right to open carry, I don't recommend it.

It also reminds me of the rule "Don't drink while you have a gun on you". Not only is it not safe, if someone in a bar sees your gun, he may try to take it from you (Imagine a firefight in a bar men's room).

Drugs and guns are the only things I know of that have a higher "street value" than "retail value".

Walking around with an exposed firearm may actually attract violence, which is not the goal.

TailGator makes a valid point here "... Mr. Tyler had his sidearm taken and then pursued the person who took it. If that is a correct reading, then Tyler was in those few moments in unarmed man pressing an attack on an armed man. However justifiable that may be, it is a bad tactic. If Tyler had an opportunity to get clear of the situation rather than pursue Smith he should have taken it. "

But I can't say I wouldn't do the same thing (while agreeing it's not smart).

I feel that carrying a firearm is a serious responsibility. And if someone takes possession of my gun - it's STILL my responsibility.
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Old December 26, 2011, 06:42 AM   #58
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I have a hard time beliving the story.....sounds very fishy
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Old December 26, 2011, 08:27 AM   #59
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+1 Pax

I believe in the right to open carry. That said, the actual practice is not a great idea without a high level retention holster. You cannot see behind you, even if you are on high alert. Perhaps one day there will be enough carriers that the danger is negated, until then, it's a good idea to be concealed in 90% of cases. You can defend OC in any number of ways, but there is an inherit danger with relatively low numbers of the population carrying firearms. In most instances, statistically, there will be no one to back you up. That's a real problem for me.
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Old December 26, 2011, 06:54 PM   #60
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I think if some people were as fine and upstanding as some of the folks on this board seem to think some folks are, and other folks are as rotten and untrustworthy as some folks on this board seem to think they are, that it would be no problem if we could quickly identify which is which. If that day ever happens there would be no need for guns would there ?

Fear seems to blind us all. It is easy to identify those that live in fear.
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Old January 1, 2012, 04:45 PM   #61
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I don't think I would ever open carry, but I don't see it as a bad practice. The way I see it there are disadvantages and advantages to both concealed and open carry.

Concealed carry:

Disadvantages:

You need appropriate training to draw a sidearm from concealment.

You need appropriate equipment, such as a smaller gun or a concealment holster.

You have to realize that there is no deterrent effect, because criminals do not know you are armed. You may become a target because the perception is that you don't have a gun.

Advantages:

Element of surprise.

You can carry into places that might hassle an open carrier.

Criminals are less likely to grab your gun before a confrontation starts.

Open carry:

Disadvantages:

You need appropriate training to protect a sidearm from a grab or draw from a retention holster.

You need appropriate equipment, such as a retention holster.

You may become a target because criminals know you have a gun.

Your sidearm is arguably more accessible to criminals.

Advantages:

Some criminals will see you have a gun and avoid you.

Size is less of a factor in selecting a sidearm.

Sidearm is arguably more accessible to you.
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Old January 23, 2012, 09:04 PM   #62
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That incident was very unfortunate; however I don’t want anybody else to get discouraged on open carrying based on that incident. Serpa holster by Black hawk could have avoided this situation.
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Old January 26, 2012, 03:41 PM   #63
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Serpas need extensive training in use - does the open carry civilian do that? There are very unfortunate accidents with these under stress which may or may not be prevented by training. We've had two shoot themselves with such in local matches.

Thus, strapping on a Serpa without much, much practice (and does Oscar Open-Carry do that) is a tad risky.
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Old January 26, 2012, 03:54 PM   #64
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@Lost sheep--that is a great idea! I love the idea of deception. Ironically, I suspect this might result in a trumped up "entrapment" charge if someone actually shot a BG that grabbed a decoy.
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Old January 26, 2012, 07:03 PM   #65
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Quote:
The real lesson to be learned is situational awareness and avoiding Condition White.
As cold as it sounds the quote is on the money. Just my thought on this along with the above is a way of retention in the holster

Quote:
Serpas need extensive training in use - does the open carry civilian do that? There are very unfortunate accidents with these under stress which may or may not be prevented by training. We've had two shoot themselves with such in local matches.
3 here in FLA shot themselves and one was a deputy sheriff. No longer allowed Serpas at our matches.
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Old January 27, 2012, 07:30 PM   #66
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3 here in FLA shot themselves and one was a deputy sheriff. No longer allowed Serpas at our matches.
Are Glocks banned too?

They should add more materal to the release button. The idea is to keep your finger straight along the side of the holster, but how it is now it's easy to push in on the button and get your finger inside the trigger gaurd when you draw.
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Old January 27, 2012, 08:48 PM   #67
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I will agree that situational awareness and avoiding condition White are of utmost importance wile OC. I live in an open carry state, and persevere to open carry as opposed to going down getting my permit, which I'm sure they would give me. A stubborn American thing. I have lived here since '89 and nary a weapons charge ever for me.

You better not be in condition White while carrying a weapon in any mode. Open carry is precarious and has risks. You must pay attention to whats going on around you. The new laws include brandishing and you can't scare grandma or your life is over with Legal troubles now. This may be a bigger risk (statistically) than being attacked violently. All the have to say it was a black gun, and if yours is dark, guess who's going to jail?

So everyday open carry really means that very few ever get to see it. You never can tell who in a crowd may get terrified at the sight of a weapon being carried, so I have deduced that the prudent course of action is to not let the general populace see it at all, but I make sure that any Policeman that I encounter can easily see it if it looks like we are going to be talking. So far, so good. I find that generally, the older officers are more reasonable calmer individuals, and the younger officers usually get hyped up at the sight of a weapon. I get really scared when younger officer pulls me over because when he feels tension at the sight of the weapon, he usually mods his behavior to the more authoritarianism mode which is...discouraging. I really respect the older officers who are more calm and better at reading people and see me and not just the gun.
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Old January 29, 2012, 06:37 PM   #68
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Are Glocks banned too?
Not yet, but we're workin on it Our Range Director/owner feels if a LE officer can do it certainly a civilian is capable. Just one less thing to have to be concerned about owning/running/insuring a private range. After all safety is Job 1 !!
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Old January 29, 2012, 08:11 PM   #69
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I support the right to open carry, but I don't recommend the practice of open carry, and I don't open carry
Bingo. Just because you have the right to do something doesn't make it a good idea.
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Old January 29, 2012, 09:27 PM   #70
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open carry

I have always felt that open carry in public is a terrible idea.

If you are in your home, on your property, or in your place of business, that's different.

Just walking around on the street open carrying? Many of the people who do this are attention whores. If you are serious about self defense, get a quality gun, get a good holster, get some quality training, practice frequenty, and carry concealed.

The fact your weapon is concealed is a tactical advantage for you and I believe that it outweighs the potential deterrent effect of open carry.
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Old January 29, 2012, 09:34 PM   #71
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Quote:
Serpas need extensive training in use - does the open carry civilian do that? There are very unfortunate accidents with these under stress which may or may not be prevented by training. We've had two shoot themselves with such in local matches.

Thus, strapping on a Serpa without much, much practice (and does Oscar Open-Carry do that) is a tad risky.
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Old January 29, 2012, 09:39 PM   #72
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Either way, I thought the story might serve as a good basis for discussion of retention tactics for those who open carry. What might have changed the outcome of this story?
Yes, but that won't persaude the OC advocates to rethink their position.

There are two things that are obvious about OC.

1. Most criminal elements will stear clear of you, and you're safer in that regard.

2. Some won't and they'll have the tactical advantage if they want to take you down, and you may not see it coming. With those individuals, you're in more danger than ever.

The individual who was murdered was not an intended victim until his gun was spotted by a couple of opportunists.
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Old January 29, 2012, 09:43 PM   #73
Nnobby45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackFeather
So, if I have my license to carry a firearm on duty as a security guard, I'm doing something stupid?

Nate45, what is a credible system?
NO, some personnel can be assumed to be armed so it may not make much difference if it's CCW or OC. Gun shop owners, Jewelry Store owners, and so on. And, of course, security guards, bank guards, armored car, etc. There are risks associated with the job. People like yourself aren't going to be the victims of some one just passing by where you don't see it coming. And you know that your uniform will attract attention off duty and, I hope, act accordingly.
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Old January 30, 2012, 12:31 PM   #74
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http://gunnuts.net/2012/01/09/blackh...nned-at-fletc/

http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.p...ighlight=fletc

Info on the Serpa problems. I think that civilians who OC and trust on the Serpa as a means of protection and not are extremely well practiced are at risk. Point I made before.
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Old January 30, 2012, 03:39 PM   #75
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I won't openly carry, simply because things like this can happen. I see it as an invitation to disaster. I believe that if you carry, nobody else should know.
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