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Old December 6, 2011, 10:16 PM   #26
Tom Servo
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I hate to say "I told you so," but I told you so. This has always been one of my main objections to the practice of open carry: most of the people doing it do not pursue anything beyond the most rudimentary training, and they do not maintain the appropriate equipment or situational awareness.

Not only was Mr. Tyler killed, it appears that his gun was used to kill a second person a couple of hours later.
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Old December 6, 2011, 11:38 PM   #27
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Tyler, 48, had a concealed-carry permit, but his handgun was plainly visible that night in his holster, Johnson said.

Sounds like Mr. Tyler used poor judgement all around. Unfortunately, it cost him his life.
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Old December 6, 2011, 11:47 PM   #28
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My wife and I both have a Concealed Handgun License but we support Open Carry only so that we are not committing a crime if the handgun is accidentally exposed for a brief moment.

I think it goes without saying that the tiny amount of draw time advantage that open carry provides is far outweighed by the disadvantage of bad guys having immediate access to our weapons.
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Old December 7, 2011, 11:48 AM   #29
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Just because someone is "paying attention" doesnt mean that they suddenly have jedi precognition or spidey sense. If you are paying attn, you may be able to determine that an attack is underway earlier than someone who is not paying attention but it doesnt mean you will "always" see it comming or always avoid it. I am not trying to turn this into a oc vs cc thread but there is certainly some merit to the debate.
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Old December 7, 2011, 12:08 PM   #30
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I really don't know what this says because information on this case is incomplete and data considering the pros and cons of open carry are non existent. It definitely appears he was killed with his own gun although the circumstances are a blurry but this is the first and only case I can recall where a civilian has had this happen and I've never seen a case where someone was shot during a robbery off hand because he was open carrying.

The main thing we don't know is what possible effects OC can have in prevention. It's impossible to track. Guys walks into gas station to rob and sees an employee or customer open carrying and walks away. Mugger sees potential victim OC'ing and deside to hunt in greener pastures. How would you track those? Does it happen? I'm sure it could but I'm not sure how often and opponents to open carry don't know that it doesn't.

All I know a person with a gun is less likely to be a victim regardless of his carry preferences.

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Old December 7, 2011, 12:23 PM   #31
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LK,

You mean like this? http://forum.pafoa.org/open-carry-14...encounter.html

Or this? http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-i...bbery-kennesaw

Or do you mean, like this story from Massad Ayoob in The Gun Digest Book of Concealed Carry?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ayoob in Gun Digest book

In Arizona, a friend and I were in a convenience store between Prescott and Paulden on the way to Gunsite Training Center. My friend came from a state that then had no provision for private citiens to carry a handgun in any fashion, and was luxuriating in his ability under Arizona law to carry his custom Colt 45 auto in an exposed holster. I was a few steps away when I saw a man walk in, do a double take when he spotted the gun, and deliver a "target stare" to the loaded pistol. Amost in exaggerated pantomime, he mugged an expression of outrage and pointed at the pistol, making eye contact with others in the store that indicated his outrage. And then, that man moved in behind my friend, reaching out for the holstered pistol.

I stepped between them, glaring at the interloper. He stopped, looked at me, obviously decided that whatever was going to happen wasn't worth it, and walked away with an angry look on his face. I don't think he was going to try to shoot anyone with my friend's gun, but he was obviously going to grab it and do some show-off thing, which coulod have led to a struggle for a loaded gun in a crowded convenience store, with an obviously high potential for tragedy.
Ayoob then goes on to relate a personal situation where a "very aggressive panhandler" spotted Ayoob's own weapon. The sight "stopped him in his tracks" and he "turned around and walked away."

My point? This stuff happens. Both sides of this discussion are completely correct:
  • Open carry does deter a certain number of violent crimes, and
  • Open carry does provoke a certain number of gun-grabs and stupid or violent behavior from bystanders and criminals.

If you open carry and are not physically equipped to deal with those gun grabs, you're being very foolish.

If you make fun of people who open carry because you think it cannot possibly prevent some crimes, you're also being very foolish.

The guy who open carries without training, without proper equipment, and without admitting that he may someday need his handgun retention skills? That guy is putting himself and everyone around him at risk.

The other guy, the one who just makes fun of open carry, he's wrong -- but his wrongness isn't endangering a soul.

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Old December 7, 2011, 12:57 PM   #32
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OC has both advantages and disadvantages, as Pax has just pointed out.

People constantly talk about the "element of surprise" like it's a defensive advantage. It's not. When you turn the tables on an attacker, you have gone on offense. The defensive advantage of CC, such as it is, is that you blend in with all the other potential victims.

Carry on!
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Old December 7, 2011, 01:22 PM   #33
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Quote:
OC has both advantages and disadvantages, as Pax has just pointed out.

People constantly talk about the "element of surprise" like it's a defensive advantage. It's not. When you turn the tables on an attacker, you have gone on offense. The defensive advantage of CC, such as it is, is that you blend in with all the other potential victims.

Carry on!
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Old December 7, 2011, 01:42 PM   #34
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Quote:
The "element of surprise" is highly overrated.
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Old December 7, 2011, 01:48 PM   #35
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When you turn the tables on an attacker, you have gone on offense
Insofar as a person is legally defending himself against a threat, one is entitled to pursue that defense until the threat is no longer present. The element of surprise can allow for a more effective defense. It is not necessarily an offensive tactic. In this case, the deceased might not be so if he'd had a second gun unknownst to his attacker.
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Old December 7, 2011, 01:53 PM   #36
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Quote:
The "element of surprise" is highly overrated.
No. It's really not. Google the terms: use of surprise military tactics
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Old December 7, 2011, 03:30 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Secret_Agent_Man
Insofar as a person is legally defending himself against a threat, one is entitled to pursue that defense until the threat is no longer present. The element of surprise can allow for a more effective defense. It is not necessarily an offensive tactic. In this case, the deceased might not be so if he'd had a second gun unknownst to his attacker.
Surprise seems to me, gone when you have to take the time to reach for the weapon. Whether it's moving clothing, unzipping, or reaching in a pocket. Sure, if they want your wallet and your gun is back there you can go for it, but will two in the chest stop him from pulling the trigger?

I hate to use it, but the OODA loop applies here.

Surprise: I personally believe there's a difference between a "surprise" attack and a "sudden" attack. Does an armed robber or mugger really NOT expect you to want to fight back? Well, if he didn't, he may not be armed. Surprise is what the hunter wants. We as the defenders want a sudden attack. You need not be carrying concealed for this.

Rex_Lee: I have no military experience, so my opinion has little bearing. For military use, a surprise attack is on an unsuspecting enemy. Usually while they are sleeping, regrouping, or on the move. A sudden attack would be against an opponent who is up in arms already, while at any disadvantage, reloading, retreating, or directed elsewhere. Such as by a distraction. I may be splitting hairs, especially as any knowledge I have of warfare is from old Japanese and Chinese texts...
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Old December 7, 2011, 06:46 PM   #38
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This is why open carry is for Texas backyard BBQs.
I guess if open carry were legal in Texas it would be. Since it is not.... it would be nice if people knew that.

I think pax pretty much summed it up well as usual. A visible gun may be a deterrent but it is not some kind of force field that prevents people from trying to grab it.
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Old December 8, 2011, 08:02 AM   #39
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Related to Open Carry

As is often the case, gun store owners and employees open carry. There was a gunshop in the Bronx, New York, where the store owner was open carrying. This happened perhaps 25 years ago. His store was targeted by robbers in order to obtain handguns for their criminal needs. They entered the store with guns blazing, killing the proprietor before he knew he was in a gunbattle. As the proprietor had instant access to a loaded handgun, the robbers adjusted their tactics accordingly.

Open carry may be practical while hunting but in my opinion, it's a form of exhibitionism when done in public. Try as you might, no one can stay in Condition Yellow, all the time, without interruption. Open carry should only be done by people fortunate enough to have a third eye in the back of their heads. And yes, the street-savvy thugs, with long rap sheets, in the big cities will have you disarmed and begging for your life in short order.
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Old December 8, 2011, 11:20 AM   #40
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IMHO open carry is stupid.
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Old December 8, 2011, 11:26 AM   #41
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Since police officers with retention devices and training get their guns taken away and shot with them, I do not think there is any way to insure it will not happen to you no matter the training you have.

Open carry is a bad idea.

Jerry
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Old December 8, 2011, 11:46 AM   #42
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The "element of surprise" is highly overrated.
Quote:
No. It's really not. Google the terms: use of surprise military tactics
No, it really isn't overrated when combined with effective actions. The element of surprise concept is both heralded and maligned depending on who is using it and when. When it is being used for accomplish goals that we perceive as being positive, it is consider to be a shrewd tactic and one that often results in achieving the intended goals with reduced risk. When it is used by our foes, it is considered cowardly and unfair.
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Old December 8, 2011, 12:42 PM   #43
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Mr.Tyler was attacked by two skilled and experienced street criminals and unfortunately lost the fight.
That assumes facts not in evidence. I doubt these guys had any special skill at grabbing guns from people. Odds are they weren't very skilled at anything.
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Old December 8, 2011, 01:02 PM   #44
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I fail to see how the element of surprise is overrated. Surprise prevents you from being immediately prepared.

If you see two or three bad looking people approaching then you can take action to avoid or counter their possible actions. But if suddenly in a parking lot with a crowd one or more is already close and grabs your weapon then you cannot counter it in the same way.

One who OCs is likely to be surprised at any time he is in proximity with other people. I am not sure even the martial arts experts here could retain their weapons if two or more physically strong BGs grabbed you by surprise. But then I never thought I was tough.
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Old December 8, 2011, 01:32 PM   #45
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Its just too bad when anything like this happens. Situational awareness and a good retention holster would be first on my list if I ever open carried in town.
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Old December 8, 2011, 01:42 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JerryM
I am not sure even the martial arts experts here could retain their weapons if two or more physically strong BGs grabbed you by surprise.
Any credible martial arts system is going to stress avoidance as a key element.

OC, at least in my opinion, is not the most prudent way of practicing avoidance.

The average person isn't equipped to go toe to toe with heavy weight street thugs. Especially multiple ones.

Let me use myself as an example. Back in the day I made quite a few 'fighters' hit the puke bucket, just by having them try to go a full 3 min boxing round with me. I didn't lay a glove on them either, other than blocking. All I did was dance around and yell 'Hit me you ____! Hit me!' Granted they were wearing gloves and couldn't gouge my eyes out, or use grappling techniques, nevertheless they weren't in as good a shape as they thought they were. Some of them could hit hard too, ouch.

So as you might surmise, I'm in fairly good shape and reasonably skilled at martial arts.

Now, lets suppose I'm OCing my favorite 1911 while eyeing the dollar menu at McDonalds. Then the man in the following video decides he wants to steal it.

Sucker puncher gets life sentence in Texas

Now what do you suppose I could have done to stop him? Well, short of not being there, nothing.


tl;dr OC is not a prudent way to avoid trouble.
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Old December 8, 2011, 01:57 PM   #47
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Martial arts arent magic and they dont create super humans... Martial arts create confidence and skills but anyone can be ambushed or overpowered depending on circumstances.

Dont confuse this to mean martial arts arent worth while but they arent a end all be all to anything.
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Old December 8, 2011, 02:45 PM   #48
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So, if I have my license to carry a firearm on duty as a security guard, I'm doing something stupid?

Nate45, what is a credible system?
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Old December 8, 2011, 03:14 PM   #49
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So, if I have my license to carry a firearm on duty as a security guard, I'm doing something stupid?
If you're doing so in a non-retention holster and you don't have any training in physically retaining the firearm, yes.

It isn't rocket surgery: if you carry a gun in the open, you should be prepared and equipped to defend it.

Prepared = with training
Equipped = with appropriate gear

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Old December 8, 2011, 03:25 PM   #50
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Martial arts arent magic and they dont create super humans... Martial arts create confidence and skills but anyone can be ambushed or overpowered depending on circumstances.

Dont confuse this to mean martial arts arent worth while but they arent a end all be all to anything.
Good point. I have 25 years experience in the martial arts and it has taught me no one is Superman. Situational awareness is one of the key elements taught in our system.
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