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Old December 6, 2011, 02:41 PM   #1
Bartholomew Roberts
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Richmond Man Killed With Own Gun While Open Carrying

According to the Richmond Times, 48yr old Blaine Tyler was open carrying a handgun when he was attacked by two 16yr olds who removed his firearm and shot him with it. The firearm was used in another robbery/fatality a few hours later.

Prosecuting attorney Andy Johnson says that the two teens arrived on a scooter, followed Tyler into the gas station/convenience store at 8:15 p.m., walked in and immediately grabbed his gun and shot him with it.

A different account has Tyler chasing one of the teens inside the store and the teen shooting him during the resulting struggle.

Either way, I thought the story might serve as a good basis for discussion of retention tactics for those who open carry. What might have changed the outcome of this story?
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Old December 6, 2011, 03:00 PM   #2
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I would think if you are going to carry, open or concealed, you should get some training in weapon retention techniques. Not sure what happened with this guy though, for all I know, the same exact thing could happen to me.
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Old December 6, 2011, 03:03 PM   #3
.wheelgunner.
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I think you might be jumping the gun re the title "killed with his own gun."

The article says,
Quote:
Authorities said they could not confirm that Tyler was killed with his own gun until they get the results of forensics testing.
If so, re the article, the victim had a concealed carry license, yet was carrying exposed. If he was shot with his own gun, that's a good argument against open carry.

Keep us posted.
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Old December 6, 2011, 03:09 PM   #4
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Concealed Carry vs. Open Carry arguments are like 9mm vs .45 acp arguments, a pointless waste of time.

The real lesson to be learned is situational awareness and avoiding Condition White.

To quote Col Jeff Cooper: Condition White - Unaware and unprepared. If attacked in Condition White, the only thing that may save you is the inadequacy or ineptitude of your attacker. When confronted by something nasty, your reaction will probably be "Oh my God! This can't be happening to me."

Mr.Tyler was attacked by two skilled and experienced street criminals and unfortunately lost the fight.
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Old December 6, 2011, 03:14 PM   #5
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Without knowing exactly how they went for the gun, it's hard to say. In a struggle, it's difficult to think. Task fixation can get you killed. It's a pity this happened, two lives that did not have to end because of some sociopath teenager.

My personal solution, unsurprisingly, is a knife. Holding your gun in the holster with your right hand, draw a knife in your left hand. "Icepick" grip with the edge towards your wrist. Use it to hook their wrists away before getting some distance and drawing the gun. Yes, it's a perfect scenario, but it's better than panicking. This is a good example of why one should have good open hand skills, or a knife to supplement them.
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Old December 6, 2011, 03:19 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1911Jeeper
Concealed Carry vs. Open Carry arguments are like 9mm vs .45 acp arguments, a pointless waste of time.
Is it?

The teen went straight for the gun. The gun is specifically what they wanted to steal.

A strong argument can be made that if it were concealed, they wouldn't have known he had one.
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Old December 6, 2011, 03:31 PM   #7
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Perhaps I am reading between the lines too much, but it seems that Mr. Tyler had his sidearm taken and then pursued the person who took it. If that is a correct reading, then Tyler was in those few moments in unarmed man pressing an attack on an armed man. However justifiable that may be, it is a bad tactic. If Tyler had an opportunity to get clear of the situation rather than pursue Smith he should have taken it.

The article is so lacking in details about the fight that is hard to discern anything else. For all we know, Tyler made an admirable attempt at retention but was just physically beaten by a person who was stronger, or quicker, or who had a plan that worked before Tyler could react. We don't like to think so, but sometimes that happens.
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Old December 6, 2011, 03:43 PM   #8
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At the very least his gun was stolen from him, and his gun was the target of the theft.

Whether he was subsequently shot with his own gun - is unclear, but also not that important I don't think. If he had been carrying concealed, he probably wouldn't have been targeted.
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Old December 6, 2011, 03:44 PM   #9
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TailGator, I expect you are right.

On a side note, next time I am in Gainesville (probably next year, sometime as we still have friends and family in C FL) I can show you some nifty tricks for keeping a younger, stronger guy from taking your weapon.
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Old December 6, 2011, 03:44 PM   #10
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I'm waiting for someone to chime in "that's why it's important to have a back up !"
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Old December 6, 2011, 03:47 PM   #11
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Loss of the primary weapon is one of the reasons Mas Ayoob gives for why one might carry a BUG.... But Mas also strongly encourages development of SA.
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Old December 6, 2011, 03:49 PM   #12
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On average, (per FBI statistics) 8% of the officers killed on duty by criminals are killed with their own firearm. That is why weapon retention is taught to officers, why their body armor needs to at least be of the protective level of the caliber of their own weapon and why (exposed) duty holsters need to be retention type holsters. Very few CCW holsters have any retention features built in. Not a good idea to wear that type of holster exposed whether you are a civilian or law enforcement.
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Old December 6, 2011, 04:20 PM   #13
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A sad situation for sure. I feel it is best concealed so nobody knows you have it till it is needed. is my opinion only, not mesnt to be a guide for others.
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Old December 6, 2011, 04:25 PM   #14
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I agree - open carry brings with it a high amount of risk. If the grip of your pistol is just sticking out there in the open, it's too easy for somebody to distract you (spill something on you, step on your foot, hand you something and say "you dropped this," etc.) while during that split second his partner grabs your weapon.
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Old December 6, 2011, 04:28 PM   #15
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Here's a follow-up w/ some more info - http://www2.timesdispatch.com/news/n...in-ar-1505438/

It's not apparent that the first victim was open carrying, though it seems that his gun may have been visible or perhaps he was known to carry.
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Old December 6, 2011, 04:34 PM   #16
Bartholomew Roberts
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Quote:
Originally Posted by .wheelgunner.
I think you might be jumping the gun re the title "killed with his own gun."

The article says,

Quote:
Authorities said they could not confirm that Tyler was killed with his own gun until they get the results of forensics testing.
Well, given that all the witness accounts indicate he was killed with his own gun, I discounted the lack of results from forensic testing; but I suppose it is possible the two 16yr olds, stole his gun and then shot him with a gun of their own.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1911Jeeper
Concealed Carry vs. Open Carry arguments are like 9mm vs .45 acp arguments, a pointless waste of time.
Well, if the idea is to avoid being the target of a gun grab, then not letting people know you have a gun is pretty much in line with common wisdom on self-defense to avoid the victim selection process entirely.

Quote:
The real lesson to be learned is situational awareness and avoiding Condition White.
I think that awareness is important concealed or open carry; but in relation to this incident, it raises some questions:

1. What would have helped Tyler be more aware of his surroundings in this incident. What do you practice on a daily basis to "train" your awareness?

2. Had Tyler suspected he was going to be attacked or even guessed a gun grab might be imminent, what steps could he take before the fight in a public gas station that would have given him an edge?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Casimer
Here's a follow-up w/ some more info - http://www2.timesdispatch.com/news/n...in-ar-1505438/

It's not apparent that the first victim was open carrying, though it seems that his gun may have been visible or perhaps he was known to carry.
That isn't a follow up story; but an earlier (December 1) story by the same newspaper in the original link. In the more recent (December 3) story, they state he was open carrying.
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Old December 6, 2011, 05:05 PM   #17
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Quote:
I think you might be jumping the gun re the title "killed with his own gun."

The article says,
Quote:
Authorities said they could not confirm that Tyler was killed with his own gun until they get the results of forensics testing.
Don't be fooled by bureaucratic copspeak.

This is why open carry is for Texas backyard BBQs.
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Old December 6, 2011, 06:20 PM   #18
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Quote:
If so, re the article, the victim had a concealed carry license, yet was carrying exposed. If he was shot with his own gun, that's a good argument against open carry.
No, but it may be a good argument against open carry in a non-retention holster. Every year there are folks who are disarmed by criminals and shot with their own guns, and yet none of us would suggest that such acts are a good argument for not using a gun for self defense.

Quote:
On average, (per FBI statistics) 8% of the officers killed on duty by criminals are killed with their own firearm.
If you are referring to officers feloniously killed (versus vehicular wrecks), then your percentage is low. In 2010, 7 of 56 officers feloniously killed were killed with their own guns (12.5%)
http://www.fbi.gov/news/pressrel/pre...killed-in-2010

If you are talking about just dying in the line of duty, then your number is a bit high. It looks like 160 were killed in the line of duty in 2010 (4.4% with their own guns).
http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Society...ercent-in-2010
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Old December 6, 2011, 07:06 PM   #19
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I agree that whatever happened its a shame. I also agree that situational awareness would have served Mr. Tyler in this situation. I attribute my situational awareness which borders paranoid to my military experience and the fact that I have been robbed once at gunpoint in Birmingham and attempted robbed two other times. Both times the attacker was not successful. You just never know what these young people and strung out people will do these days. You have to be very dilligent.
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Old December 6, 2011, 07:14 PM   #20
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Quote:
Mr.Tyler was attacked by two skilled and experienced street criminals and unfortunately lost the fight.
Experienced sociopaths can often approach you totally unawares, and you will never know it until too late. Better in areas with high foot traffic volumes like stores and restaurants that nobody knows you are carrying.

It's somewhat like guerrilla warfare. Blend in with the locals. Don't stand out or draw attention to yourself. Surprise is to your advantage if something starts to go down.

Richmond, Va is one of the most violent crime-ridden cities on the East Coast, a place where you live with thugs. If you live.

A good place to keep in mind the old saying, "Be polite. Be professional. But, have a plan to kill everyone you meet if necessary..."

More good advice:
http://www.fieldandstream.com/blogs/...es-gunfighting
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Old December 6, 2011, 07:37 PM   #21
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It's sad that the victim lost his life, but this is another reason I do not support open carry.
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Old December 6, 2011, 07:48 PM   #22
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I support the right to open carry, but I don't recommend the practice of open carry, and I don't open carry except in a hiking or hunting environment.
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Old December 6, 2011, 07:50 PM   #23
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Quote:
To quote Col Jeff Cooper: Condition White - Unaware and unprepared.
I submit to you that carrying in an open, non-retention holster without some degree of training in weapons retention, while living in denial that these types of attacks do happen, and without a plan to deal with it is in fact the very definition of Condition White.

Having your head on a swivel does no good if it's simultaneously up your nether regions.

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Old December 6, 2011, 08:33 PM   #24
federali
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Weapon Retention

It begins with situational awareness, having the gun totally concealed in a holster that offers some retention value, and then knowing how to defend the gun in the event of an attempted takeaway (gun retention techniques are based upon martial arts skills).

I don't want to step on anybody's rights but the only experience I have with open carry are the employees of a few gun emporiums here in the northeast. They often seemed more interested in strutting around with their fancy handguns than anything else.

As this incident demonstrates, open carry can have some minor drawbacks, such as losing your gun and your life to a determined criminal. I will always carry concealed, even if I move to an open carry state. I'm getting older, can no longer wrestle with men half my age and the element of surprise becomes more important in my bag of defensive tricks as the years tick away. I'm now a bit overweight, have white hair and I may look like an easy mark to a street thug. No point in laying all my cards on the table. They may attack the lamb they perceive but the wolf is wearing a disguise.
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Old December 6, 2011, 09:30 PM   #25
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It has been said that if there is somewhere you would not go without a gun, you certainly should not go there with one. There are parts of Minneapolis where I am the minority and in particular a gas station that is a known gang hangout. There have been numerous shootings, fights, and one or two deaths there. I purchase my gas and pop elsewhere.

Anytime I stop and plan leave my vehicle, I assess the behavior, demeanor, and clothing styles of the locals. If anyone is behaving badly or giving me the stink eye, I can always go somewhere else to go pee, gas up, or buy a soda pop. If I don't like the looks of anyone present, I simply continue on, and I have done so more than once. Most two legged predators have warning signs that are easily noted if you are paying attention.

If you fail to pay attention (condition white), you risk becoming a victim whether you are armed or not.

.
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