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Old November 22, 2011, 04:37 AM   #1
1stADCombatVet
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should CCW classes spend more time on Handling the weapons?

I just want to know what everyone thinks on this subject.

I have had my CCL for 10 years now. When I took my class, we had around 6 hours of classroom work, mostly about the laws, which is good, then the next day our instructor had us meet him at the range. He had brought a Ruger .22 automatic pistol. that was the pistol we had to use, he made us, one at a time, step up to within 5 feet of the target, and fire 1 magazine of 10 rounds, making sure we put them within a target representing a human torso. after we fired our ten rounds we got our certificate, I have done some reserching and found out that for most states, that is all that is required to recieve your permit. also, I have found out that most people who go thru these classes, have never even fired a Handgun before, including the one they are going to carry, so that means we have people out there legally carrying Firearms who have maybe 10- 15 minutes of training with them. that scares me. I personally believe that the Classes should be a full 40 hour class, with several days focusing on the Safe handling of the weapon, without rounds in them, and then when they go to the range to live fire, there should be some kind of actual qualification course they have to fire, Just like all Law Enforcement does, and just like those of us in the Military Have to do. We have a class on each weapon we use, in that class, they teach us how to break that weapon down, put it back together, function checks, everything we need to know about that weapon, we also have weapon safety drilled into us. then we do a Familliarization fire, just to get used to how it recoils,and shoots, finally we go to the range and qualify, with pistols, our combat pistol range has pop up targets spaced from 5 to 31 meters away from us, we fire from a static position, and also while moving. I think anyone who gets their CCL, should have to go thru something similar before they are allowed to carry, firing one magazine from a .22 is not near enough training in my opinion... What do you think?
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Old November 22, 2011, 05:14 AM   #2
Willie Lowman
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I have thought the same thing as long as we have had concealed handgun licenses in Ohio.

Everytime I have voiced that opinion I have been met with hostility from my fellow gun owners.
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Old November 22, 2011, 05:34 AM   #3
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I don't see why they should get upset. Proper training is a must, if everyone had proper training on the weapons they are carrying, there would be a lot less incidents for the Gun Control crowd to point at, Also everyone would be a lot safer
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Old November 22, 2011, 05:42 AM   #4
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I've heard that Missouri upped the amount of live fire in the last year. When I got certified, the requirement was firing both revolver and semiauto a total of 26 shots. It could be either type for 20 and the other for 6. There were several people at the class who had serious problems handling their firearms. One older guy showed up with a NIB Glock 45 ACP and darn near tore his left thumb off because he had it stuck up behind the slide. He hadn't picked up a handgun since WW2. I was there with a friend who had been a competition shooter and smalltown policeman for 20 years and we were the only ones who really were capable of unsupervised gun handling. Shooting was at 21' and there were some misses on several targets. I don't think the instructors were as much concerned with how well everyone shot but mostly that no one GOT SHOT.
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Old November 22, 2011, 06:01 AM   #5
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see, that's what i mean, they don't really take the time to train the shooters, if not the actual instructors for the CCL course doing it, they should have a course set up for Hands on Firearms training before they can take the CCL class.
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Old November 22, 2011, 07:05 AM   #6
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Because you have no white space in your OP I read only the first sentence.

As far as time on handling weapons, the CCW class is not for learning how to handle a gun. You should know how to do that before you take the class.

The most important thing of the class is to make you aware of the laws.

The range part is merely to demonstrate that you can fire a gun with at least some capability. If you cannot do that then you have no business getting a license.
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Old November 22, 2011, 07:34 AM   #7
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Training is good. We can all benefit from it.

That said, please show me evidence that those states with no training requirement suffer because of it. The more onerous the requirements, the more people will be unarmed. Is that your intent?

Quote:
I just want to know what everyone thinks on this subject.
Do you really?

Quote:
Everytime I have voiced that opinion I have been met with hostility from my fellow gun owners.
Are you still surprised? I gather that you are against "constitutional carry.""
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Old November 22, 2011, 07:51 AM   #8
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When I took mine we had to fire 40 shots. I was amazed at how many people didn't know how to work their gun much less the safety aspect. People not taking the safety off the waving it pointing it in all different directions trying to figure out what was wrong with it.

Had a guy that was an aboslute moron. He pulled the trigger nothing happened, pull the trigger again still nothing. Turns the gun and looks down it. If that wasn't bad enough he removes his safety glasses and almost puts his eye against the opening of the barrel. Then yells at the instructor "can you come here this gun is screwy" while waving it around. Me and a buddy (who had already taken it was going back so I wouldn't have to go by myself) yelled at the same time to point the gun toward the target. Went off a few seconds later. Apparently the safety wasn't fully disengaged. Since he still had his finger on the trigger as soon as he bumped it the safety disengaged and the gun fired.

The time my buddy went something similar happened but the guy almost shot the instructor in the foot. The you had the ones who couldn't find the safety. Couldn't remember to chamber a round. And not to mention just horrible shots. I was pretty proud of my grouping with my Ruger .40. Especially since my grouping was so, so much tighter than the people with the target .22's.
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Old November 22, 2011, 07:55 AM   #9
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Quote:
firing one magazine from a .22 is not near enough training in my opinion... What do you think?
I hear you but it's not meant to be training any more than a road-test to get a driver's license is meant to be training. They are both just quick rudimentary demonstrations of adequate eyesight and spatial perception and physical coordination and vehicle/weapon handling to give an official barely enough information to be able to reasonably say that a person can handle a car/gun within parameters that won't put others in immediate danger.

Some 2nd Amendment interpreters find even this much reasonable evaluation to be invasive so, as it is now, they already feel they are bending over backwards to accept it... Many feel that these few-hour-classes and few-round-range-qualifications are already a compromise.

Most everyone feels that training is good but 2nd Amendment protectors feel that training should be left up to each individual... not imposed on them.
So... Driver's Ed courses are available for people who desire them... Firearms Training courses are available for people who desire them. But they're not mandatory. It's the American way.
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Old November 22, 2011, 07:58 AM   #10
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No.

The purpose of the CCW class is to obtain your CCW license, not learn how to use your firearm.

The range where I take my CCW classes have classes for beginner firearms owners and such, that's fine and should not be a part of the CCW process.

If you want to learn more about handling your weapon in the real world, there are classes available for that, too, elsewhere. You get out of it what you put into it.

It's all about personal responsibility... and they do cover that in the CCW class. Having that license doesn't magically make you Jack Bauer.
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Old November 22, 2011, 08:01 AM   #11
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I gather you want to know what we think of "training" for concealed carry (paragraphs were invented for a reason).

I don't like the idea of having to have a license. Much less take any training to get that license.
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Old November 22, 2011, 08:01 AM   #12
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QUOTE: Mobuck
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I've heard that Missouri upped the amount of live fire in the last year. When I got certified, the requirement was firing both revolver and semiauto a total of 26 shots. It could be either type for 20 and the other for 6.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In Texas we fire 50 shots, with either a SA or Revolver. I know there are some people who never go back to practice in between qualifications. There are people who shoot every week and there are those like me who practice
every month or two. I guess if they pass the legislation regarding concealed carry they might standardize the amount of rounds fired.
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Old November 22, 2011, 08:19 AM   #13
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The state I currently live in has no requirement for any training class. You show your drivers license, they run your name, you pay $15 and they give you your CCL. It seems much the perfect system.

If you want to train, train to your heart's content. Don't try to restrict me and burden me with extra taxes and arbitrary requirements for something I should already know how to do anyway.

Keep in mind that all the training in the world won't prevent the cause of most NDs, lapses in judgment.
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Old November 22, 2011, 08:51 AM   #14
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TIME

More time telling and showing what criminal and civil process you might be draged thru for a shooting
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Old November 22, 2011, 08:57 AM   #15
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Quote:
I have thought the same thing as long as we have had concealed handgun licenses in Ohio.
My instructor told us at the beginning of the class that "more time shooting" was the most common response on his evaluation form

Quote:
More time telling and showing what criminal and civil process you might be draged thru for a shooting
This would be quite useful, but ultimately depends on the prosecutors in your area - some might be more willing than others to push for punishment on even a justified shooting.
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Old November 22, 2011, 09:11 AM   #16
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Mixed Feelings

I have mixed feelings on this subject. Safety is extremely important. I feel people should be trained in and practice proper safety in whatever they do, yet I am against legislating the lives of the individuals. In TX the state charges $140 for the license. Maybe if the individual provided proof of a safety training course, the state could offer a discount on that fee. I would be agreeable to that. There was one guy in my class that really needed training in handling his gun because heseemed to be having some problems with its functions. I think he had just bought the gun the day before.
I like the idea of that $15 fee. Mine cost $155 even with a $70 discount for being a veteran. The class was $85.
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Old November 22, 2011, 09:15 AM   #17
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I'm all for training.......................I'm against mandatory training.

Why should we burden low income people with the cost of a 40 hour training requirement. That would jack up the cost to those who wish to exercise their right protected by the 2nd amendment. The Constitution protects all of us, not just those who can afford to spend big bucks for 40 hours of training.

You mentioned LE being required to go through extensive training, and to qualify yearly, twice yearly, or what ever. That's true, what is also true is most cops can't shoot for crap. I know, I was a firearms instructor for most of my 20 years in LE. Furthermore, I'll say the same about the military.

If one is going to train, and really learn, then he or she will do it. If not, they they wont whether its mandatory or not.

As others have pointed out, there is not evidence that states that require extensive training are any safer then those who don't.

I'll go back to the cost of such training. There are a ton of classes and courses out there, pricing varies. Because there are so many, the cost is kept low (in some cases) because of competing for the market. If you increase that market by mandatory training, I fear the cost will go up, making exercising your rights a rich man's club.
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Old November 22, 2011, 09:20 AM   #18
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It's better if folks get more training but....this is not an ideal world.

You share the road every day with drunks, meth-heads, innattentive smartphone operators and kids who learned to drive by playing Grand Theft Auto on their Xbox.

They have driver's licenses. Doesn't mean they know how to drive.
(And the ones who no longer have licenses - still drive.)

Near as I can tell, the risk that I'll be killed by one of these licensed drivers is far, far greater than any danger I face from sub-optimum gun handling.
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Old November 22, 2011, 09:22 AM   #19
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I just had a friend yesterday receive his permit to carry he called me 1st thing about my sw9ve for sale I sold it to him and when I handed it to him I locked the slide back. He didn't even know how to operate a slide release so I showed him and then he slides th mag in and sticks it on his hip right away. I ask aren't you going to chamber a round ?"I always do" he says I just did like he was offended. I said hell no you didn't he pulls it out points it in the air and squeezes the trigger. It didn't go off but I took the gun from him and asked him how the hell he got a permit to carry he said oh I paid my boy 100 bucks and he just gave me the certificate. I handed him his money back and told him ill never sell him anything and asked who his "boy" is he refused to tell me. were friends but not that close if you know what I mean. So I told him to go get some real training and called a local cop friend of mine and gave him what info I could to get rid of said "instructor". Thelittle amount of training required for instructors and permit holders is ridiculous. I think its that way intentionally though give enough idiots permits t carry and they're gonn mess up enough to ruin it for the rest of us.
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Old November 22, 2011, 09:32 AM   #20
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More training should be on US, BUT...

documentation on continuing training should be presented at renewal.

Had the opportunity of taking Utah CPL training, was IMPRESSED with the time devoted to "situational awareness" and early proactive steps to defuse such.

WE should take on our own the extra steps for training and handling, I prefer the informal bowling pin shoots where I keep eyes on the table and reload without looking.
Especially when doing the table with my J frame.
Pins require BEST placement of shot to avoid the flopped/ spinning pin.

Participation is ISDP or shoot & movement activity are well worth it.
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Old November 22, 2011, 09:35 AM   #21
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Ditto to Kraigwy,,,

A long standing tactic of backdoor gun control,,,
Is to simply make the process of getting a gun/license/ammo too expensive.

I'm agin' it!

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Old November 22, 2011, 09:42 AM   #22
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Quote:
He didn't even know how to operate a slide release ...........I took the gun from him and asked him how the hell he got a permit to carry................. I handed him his money back and told him ill never sell him anything .............. So I told him to go get some real training
Wouldn't have been better for both of you, to take him to the range and work with him a while on the pistol. You would have made sale, and he would have learned how to handle and fire the pistol you just sold him.
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Old November 22, 2011, 09:49 AM   #23
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I have no problems with no training but if you injure someone I want to see you prosectuted to the fullest extent of the law. Not enough people IMHO take into the "real" risks involved when you choose to carry a handgun.

If you are not properly trained with the gun you are carrying you are putting you and those around you at risk. IMHO people who do this are guilty of negligence.

I also personally believe that too many within the pro gun community do not speak out against this negligence because they are afraid of being accused of being anti- or that it will give the antis fuel to add to the fire. Instead of self policing we make excuses.
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Old November 22, 2011, 09:52 AM   #24
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Quote:
It's better if folks get more training but....this is not an ideal world.

You share the road every day with drunks, meth-heads, innattentive smartphone operators and kids who learned to drive by playing Grand Theft Auto on their Xbox.

They have driver's licenses. Doesn't mean they know how to drive.
(And the ones who no longer have licenses - still drive.)

Near as I can tell, the risk that I'll be killed by one of these licensed drivers is far, far greater than any danger I face from sub-optimum gun handling.
Right but when one of these "drivers" kills someone you do not see other meth-heads & cell phone users making excuses for the negligent killer like you do when it happens with a gun.

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Old November 22, 2011, 10:19 AM   #25
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I don't think so. I think you should already be proficient with the weapon before handling the class. The CCW class is more about the laws and making sure you can at least handle a weapon with minimum proficiency. There are other classes for learning how to handle the weapon itself (which should be taken first). That's my 2 cents on it.
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