The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Conference Center > Law and Civil Rights

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old December 2, 2011, 09:33 AM   #1
OneshotRob
Junior Member
 
Join Date: December 2, 2011
Posts: 14
buying out of state transferring to NJ

Hello All, Ive used this site in the past . Its been quiet some time since ive been here so i forgot my original SN.
So here is my question,which i think i already know the answer to. Cant hurt to check though.
Here in NJ you may not legally possess any magazine with a capacity greater then 15 rounds. So i found and AR-10 on Bud's gunshop great price. Here's the problem it comes with a 10 and 20 rnd mag. So i had a friend buy it and have it shipped to them (VT). Then they will remove the 20 rnd mag and ship to my FFL in NJ. Other then the magazine the gun is NJ legal. This would not be considered a straw purchase since it will be shipped to a FFL in NJ and then legally transferred to my name. Am I correct or have i missed some obscure law?
My friend will have the gun transferred to their name then it will be shipped and transferred to my name.
OneshotRob is offline  
Old December 2, 2011, 10:49 AM   #2
NJgunowner
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 13, 2009
Location: NJ
Posts: 1,093
Personally I would have just called Buds and worked it out with them. They probably would have been willing to swap magazines for you.

The straw purchase provision was originally meant to stop someone who can't legally buy a firearm from getting a 3rd person to do it for them. The problem is the wording of the law. If you gave your friend money to buy it for you, then technically it would be a straw purchase. If he bought it with his own money and then sold it to you, that would NOT be a straw purchase.

It comes down to semantics really. But chances are pretty good that no one in law enforcement would give a damn if you're going through an FFL and doing the NICS check etc.

Then again this is NJ so god only knows what the bonehead law enforcement would do. They like making examples.
__________________
Sig 1911 Traditional reverse two tone, Sig p226 .40, Sig 556 Swat patrol, Baby Eagle/jerico steel .45
NJgunowner is offline  
Old December 2, 2011, 11:09 AM   #3
OneshotRob
Junior Member
 
Join Date: December 2, 2011
Posts: 14
You would think that it would be easy to have them swap out a magazine. Apparently its not and they wont do it. Not one dealer that i contacted would do it. They paid for the gun ,purchased in their name. Then they will sell it to me via a FFL in NJ.Gun like i said is NJ legal with only 1 ten rounder. I don't see how this would be a problem as long as it is all transferred legally. UGH this state is completely lost as are the morons thats make the laws. So out of touch with reality.
Apparently most of the online dealers,even those with brick and mortar have the guns drop shipped from a distributor. So they a lot of times dont even see the firearm. Cant wait to leave this state
OneshotRob is offline  
Old December 2, 2011, 11:48 AM   #4
Aguila Blanca
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 25, 2008
Location: CONUS
Posts: 6,485
Are you certain the rifle is NJ-legal other than the "high capacity" magazine? I'm not from NJ. How closely does NJ's regulation mirror the now-expired Federal AWB? If this was a rifle bought right off Bud's web site, I'll bet it's a fairly standard AR-15, which means it probably has a bayonet lug and a flash hider (not a "compensator"). Are you certain those two "evil" features are legal in NJ? I'm pretty sure they are NOT legal in NY.

{ETA}Google to the rescue: http://njgunforums.com/forum/index.p...e-list-nj-awb/

From the link, another link: http://www.state.nj.us/lps/dcj/agguide/3assltf.pdf

Which gives us what NJ considers to be the proscribed "evil" features:

Quote:
A semi-automatic firearm should be considered to be "substantially identical," that is, identical in all material respects, to a named assault weapon if it meets the below listed criteria:

semi-automatic rifle that has the ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least 2 of the following:

a folding or telescoping stock;
2. a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon;
3. a bayonet mount;
a flash suppressor or threaded barrel designed to accommodate a flash suppressor; and
5. a grenade launcher;
This is, IIRC, the same criteria used in the Federal AWB. My guess is you will need to ask your friend in Vermont to perform some minor surgery, to hacksaw off the bayonet lug and to remove the flash hider that I'm sure is on the barrel now. That will leave you with a "threaded barrel capable of receiving a flash hider," which is probably also not welcome in NJ, so you should have your friend dredge up a true compensator and install it -- having it welded so that it cannot be (easily) removed.

Lastly, if the rife your friend bought has a telescoping stock, it will have to be set in the best position and the mechanism filled with epoxy to disable the telescoping feature.

Last edited by Aguila Blanca; December 2, 2011 at 11:57 AM.
Aguila Blanca is offline  
Old December 2, 2011, 12:32 PM   #5
OneshotRob
Junior Member
 
Join Date: December 2, 2011
Posts: 14
The only thing that it does have on the list is the pistol grip.Solid stock,no bayonet lug,non threaded muzzle.One 10 round magazine,20" inch barrel. I'm very aware of the evil dodads that would make it illegal. Because as you know we have an over abundance of gang bangers in NJ that use bayonets when committing drive bys and or robbing homes,banks etc .. why just yesterday a gang banger was in the gun shop legally buying a firearm so he could commit felonies with a legal gun..
OneshotRob is offline  
Old December 2, 2011, 04:10 PM   #6
Aguila Blanca
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 25, 2008
Location: CONUS
Posts: 6,485
Cool. I didn't know anyone even produced a post-ban compliant AR any more, since the expiration of the Federal AWB. During the ban I bought a post-ban Olympic Arms AR, but the same model today has at least two features that would disqualify it in most of the states that have their own AWBs.
Aguila Blanca is offline  
Old December 3, 2011, 04:19 AM   #7
natman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 24, 2008
Posts: 1,445
Quote:
The straw purchase provision was originally meant to stop someone who can't legally buy a firearm from getting a 3rd person to do it for them.
Regardless of what was "meant" when the law was written, it doesn't matter whether or not the recipient is prohibited or not, if you buy a gun for someone else it's a straw purchase.

http://www.atf.gov/publications/down...f-p-5300-4.pdf
page 164

Quote:
In some instances, a straw purchaser is used because the actual purchaser is prohibited from acquiring the firearm. That is to say, the actual purchaser is a felon or is within one of the other prohibited categories of persons who may not lawfully acquire firearms or is a resident of a State other than that in which the licensee's business premises is located. Because of his or her disability, the person uses a straw purchaser who is not prohibited from purchasing a firearm from the licensee. In other instances, neither the straw purchaser nor the actual purchaser is prohibited from acquiring the firearm.
Plus paying shipping and FFL fees so the middleman can remove a magazine seems inefficient. I'd ask the distributor to do it, if the rifle is indeed legal in NJ, they will have done it before. I'd make 100% sure it's legal before you start the ball rolling.
natman is offline  
Old December 3, 2011, 07:40 AM   #8
blume357
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 2, 2005
Location: Greenville, SC
Posts: 3,943
Don't agree with the law... but you and your friend are technically doing a straw purchase for the simple reason when he or she in VT fills out the paper work for the transfer to that state they have to answer 'no' to the question of if they are buying the gun for someone else... because obviously they are.

why could you not just tell the original seller to keep the 20 round mag?
blume357 is offline  
Old March 21, 2012, 10:08 AM   #9
zbones6
Member
 
Join Date: December 29, 2011
Posts: 91
New Jerseg gun laws

Sometimes i really hate living in Nj. My spring BB gun is technically a firearm. So is my paintball gun. Im sure in a few years, my wood recurve bow will be a firearm
zbones6 is offline  
Old March 21, 2012, 11:54 AM   #10
Frank Ettin
Staff
 
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 6,764
The OP here has problems.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NJgunowner
...The straw purchase provision was originally meant to stop someone who can't legally buy a firearm from getting a 3rd person to do it for them. The problem is the wording of the law...
I'm sorry, but that is wrong. The "law" is 18 USC 922(a)(6):
Quote:
(a) It shall be unlawful -
...

6) for any person in connection with the acquisition or attempted acquisition of any firearm or ammunition from a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector, knowingly to make any false or fictitious oral or written statement or to furnish or exhibit any false, fictitious, or misrepresented identification, intended or likely to deceive such importer, manufacturer, dealer, or collector with respect to any fact material to the lawfulness of the sale or other disposition of such firearm or ammunition under the provisions of this chapter;...
The issue is that when someone is buying a gun on behalf of another, at that person's request, on his behalf, as his agent, the person purchasing the gun is not, in the contemplation of the law, the actual purchaser. He would therefore be making a false statement if he claims on the 4473 to be the actual purchaser. And that is what the ATF considers to be a straw purchase.

See the ATF publication Federal Firearms Regulation Reference Guide, 2005 which states on page 165 (emphasis added):
Quote:
15. STRAW PURCHASES

Questions have arisen concerning the lawfulness of firearms purchases from licensees by persons who use a "straw purchaser" (another person) to acquire the firearms. Specifically, the actual buyer uses the straw purchaser to execute the Form 4473 purporting to show that the straw purchaser is the actual purchaser of the firearm. In some instances, a straw purchaser is used because the actual purchaser is prohibited from acquiring the firearm. That is to say, the actual purchaser is a felon or is within one of the other prohibited categories of persons who may not lawfully acquire firearms or is a resident of a State other than that in which the licensee's business premises is located. Because of his or her disability, the person uses a straw purchaser who is not prohibited from purchasing a firearm from the licensee. In other instances, neither the straw purchaser nor the actual purchaser is prohibited from acquiring the firearm.

In both instances, the straw purchaser violates Federal law by making false statements on Form 4473 to the licensee with respect to the identity of the actual purchaser of the firearm, as well as the actual purchaser's residence address and date of birth. The actual purchaser who utilized the straw purchaser to acquire a firearm has unlawfully aided and abetted or caused the making of the false statements. The licensee selling the firearm under these circumstances also violates Federal law if the licensee is aware of the false statements on the form. It is immaterial that the actual purchaser and the straw purchaser are residents of the State in which the licensee's business premises is located, are not prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms, and could have lawfully purchased firearms...
Frank Ettin is offline  
Old March 29, 2012, 02:44 PM   #11
Daugherty16
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 10, 2008
Location: Live Free or Die state
Posts: 259
If you haven't actually made the purchase yet, you might stop and reconsider. There are post-ban compliant ARs still made and sold. For example, what is in your local gun shop inventory? I know SW makes a sport version that is CT and CA compliant (just bought one) that has no comp or threads and the multiposition stock is pinned in place. (haven't pulled the pin to see if it is also glued!).

Downsides are no dust cover and no forward assist. The assist can be accomplished with a thumb if necessary, and the dust cover - i just decided to buy one that is completely CT legal. Came with a 10 round mag. Since we don't have the mag restrictions, i've stocked up on 30 rounders.

Stag also makes compliant arms, and is the only company i know making left-handed uppers for us southpaws.

It isn't hard to assemble your own, buying a stripped lower from an FFL and then getting an upper assembly with lower parts kits. Assembly instructions are all over the web, if you don't already know how yourself. I didn't go with that option because i didn't want to possess an illegal rifle in CT and face the (remote) possibility of being tried for a felony.

But your friend will have to answer falsely on the 4473 in order to make this go through. That is a straw purchase. Another grey area is buying a gun with the intent of giving it as a gift.

Good thing we have all these ridiculous laws to keep us safe from the other law-abiding gun owners.
__________________
"To my mind it is wholly irresponsible to go into the world incapable of preventing violence, injury, crime, and death. How feeble is the mindset to accept defenselessness... How pathetic." - - Ted Nugent

"Cogito, Ergo Armitum Sum" - (I Think, Therefore I Am Armed)- - anon.
Daugherty16 is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:16 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.09429 seconds with 7 queries