The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Conference Center > Law and Civil Rights

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old November 27, 2011, 09:08 PM   #1
dieselbeef
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 3, 2011
Location: myakka city fl
Posts: 197
how do i find out what guns are reg to me

so i know..have bought and sold many..did a title serach at dmv one day and i own alotta stuff i sold a long time ago
thought this might also apply to guns i no longer own

so how do i find out what the govt thinks i own ?
thanks
gary
dieselbeef is offline  
Old November 27, 2011, 09:36 PM   #2
LinuxHack3r
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 17, 2010
Posts: 282
Assuming you are speaking of the Federal Government:
You can commit a separate, completely anonymous crime with each of the firearms you have, and whichever crimes they try and pin you with, well I'll be as bold to say they think you own that gun

The official answer is that the Federal Government does not have a national firearm registry.
__________________
Si vis pacem, para bellum
LinuxHack3r is offline  
Old November 27, 2011, 09:39 PM   #3
alland
Member
 
Join Date: December 23, 2009
Posts: 34
Seeing as there is no gun registration in Florida I don't see how any could be registered to you. The only record of any purchases would be on the 4473's and the bound book with the FFL where you bought them. Make model and serial number are not reported during the background check.

If the FFL is now out of business the records would have been tansfered to the BATFE. Who knows what the BATFE does with them but by law they are supposedly prohibited from creating a defacto registration.
alland is offline  
Old November 27, 2011, 11:59 PM   #4
Cheapshooter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 2, 2007
Location: Missouri
Posts: 4,206
It always surprises me to see how many people think the 4473, NICS check, and when my state had it, the permit to acquire are registration. I hear the comment "I can't sell it, it's not registered". Or "I'll only sell it to you if you have it registered" Just the local, state, and federal government's way of discouraging gun sales!
__________________
Cheapshooter's rules of gun ownership #1: NEVER SELL OR TRADE ANYTHING!
Cheapshooter is offline  
Old November 28, 2011, 07:13 AM   #5
dieselbeef
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 3, 2011
Location: myakka city fl
Posts: 197
so yall are sayin no one knows what i own or dont? then why the ffl transfr crap everytime i buy one....just a felony check? seems likely more than that
gary
dieselbeef is offline  
Old November 28, 2011, 08:35 AM   #6
thallub
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2007
Location: South Western OK
Posts: 2,067
so
Quote:
yall are sayin no one knows what i own or dont? then why the ffl transfr crap everytime i buy one....just a felony check?
Bingo!!!

Quote:
seems likely more than that
It's not.
thallub is offline  
Old November 28, 2011, 08:43 AM   #7
LinuxHack3r
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 17, 2010
Posts: 282
Quote:
Originally Posted by dieselbeef View Post
so yall are sayin no one knows what i own or dont? then why the ffl transfr crap everytime i buy one....just a felony check? seems likely more than that
Well if you look, you can find many that agree with you. Supposedly though, after the NICS check, the data is deleted from the FBI's servers at midnight.

One thing the checks do is "assure" that only the good guys get the guns. Transferring through an FFL is also the only legal way to do an out of state transfer to another individual.

However, you will hear stories from various FFL's regarding various federal agencies calling them about a specific gun that was used in a crime, at which point the FFL has to dig up the 4473 and see who they sold the gun to. But all that shows is who they SOLD it to. How does the fed know which gun was sold from which FFL unless they have a database? Well, there are, I hypothesize, two possibilities:

1) The 4473 information is passed along before deleted.

2) Due to a foggy mixture of federal regulations and self-imposed accounting and inventory purposes, gun manufacturers keep record of which guns were shipped to which FFL, and thus the fed can ask/subpoena for the information when a crime is committed.

IF the first is true, I suppose that someone in the fed is LOL'ing themselves to sleep every night at how foolish we are for believing their "we don't keep these records" nonsense.

IF the second is true, I suppose in a sense, we have essentially registration without a central database. However this would theoretically only involve people that bought new firearms from an FFL. In this scenario the "trail" should stop once the gun is sold or traded, even if it goes through an FFL during this process.
LinuxHack3r is offline  
Old November 28, 2011, 08:51 AM   #8
alland
Member
 
Join Date: December 23, 2009
Posts: 34
Number 2 is the way it works. Even if the feds kept the 4473 from a background check, the make, model and serial number is not given to the feds when the background is called in.
alland is offline  
Old November 28, 2011, 09:31 AM   #9
pbratton
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 29, 2007
Location: Sugar Land, Texas
Posts: 169
The rules of firearms transfers create a chain from the manufacturer, through the wholesaler, to the dealer, and then to the individual.

After this, depending on your states rules, there may be no record of transfer beyond that.
pbratton is offline  
Old November 28, 2011, 09:33 AM   #10
csmsss
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 24, 2008
Location: Orange, TX
Posts: 2,985
It's #2. When the feebs do a firearms trace, they start at the mfr. and go down the distribution chain to the FFL. Problem being that once a pistol has been sold to the public, there is generally no paper trail and the only way to establish an ownership chain is by fieldwork (which they hate).
csmsss is offline  
Old November 28, 2011, 11:50 AM   #11
dogtown tom
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 23, 2006
Location: Plano, Texas
Posts: 1,506
Quote:
LinuxHack3r Well if you look, you can find many that agree with you. Supposedly though, after the NICS check, the data is deleted from the FBI's servers at midnight.
All "Proceed" transactions are deleted at the close of the NICS business day per Federal law. When the FBI NICS was in its infancy they were storing the info until Congress ripped them a new one.

All "Delayed" transactions information is held until NICS changes the status to Proceed or Denied.

Information from all "Denied" transactions are kept permanently per Federal law.


Quote:
However, you will hear stories from various FFL's regarding various federal agencies calling them about a specific gun that was used in a crime, at which point the FFL has to dig up the 4473 and see who they sold the gun to. But all that shows is who they SOLD it to. How does the fed know which gun was sold from which FFL unless they have a database?
The Feds can only trace a firearm from a manufacturer to the first retail sale. It isn't a database search but old fashioned reading the entry in the bound books of manufacturers/distributors/dealers.

Quote:
Well, there are, I hypothesize, two possibilities:

1) The 4473 information is passed along before deleted.
Wrong.
No one gets information from my customers 4473 with the exception of the buyers personal information for the purpose of a FBI NICS check. The FBI NICS is only told whether the firearm is a handgun , long gun or other firearm. They aren't told whether its a revolver, pistol, rifle, shotgun, receiver, frame, lower or PGO shotgun. They aren't told the name of the manufacturer, model, caliber or serial number....all of which is recorded on the 4473.

Federal law requires that the dealer keep 4473's for twenty years when they may be destroyed. If the dealer goes out of business before that time the 4473's are sent to the ATF.

ATF cannot remove a 4473 from the dealers possession unless it is pursuant to a criminal investigation.

Quote:
2) Due to a foggy mixture of federal regulations and self-imposed accounting and inventory purposes, gun manufacturers keep record of which guns were shipped to which FFL, and thus the fed can ask/subpoena for the information when a crime is committed.
Theres nothing foggy about Federal law....all licensees are required to record the aquisition and disposition of every firearm through their business.

When a firearm is recovered at a crime scene, ATF will contact the manufacturer to see where the gun was shipped.....then they continue to follow the trail until that first retail sale to a customer who completed a 4473. If that customer sold/traded/lost that gun and does not know/remember/admit knowledge of the buyer then the trace stops there.

ATF doesn't need a subpoena, complying with a trace request is a requirement of all Federal Firearm Licensees.

Before I became a dealer, I too, thought the 4473's were a form of registration. Now I realize just how laughable that is. It would have to be the single most inefficient method imaginable.

To show just how nonexistent their ability to trace firearms is....last month every FFL in two counties received a letter from our DA's office asking us to check our records to see if particular individual had purchased firearms or ammunition through a licensee. It is a capital murder case.
__________________
Need a FFL in north Dallas/Plano/Allen/Frisco/McKinney ? Just EMAIL me.

$20 transfers ($10 for CHL, active military,police,fire or schoolteachers)

Last edited by dogtown tom; November 28, 2011 at 11:57 AM.
dogtown tom is offline  
Old November 28, 2011, 01:37 PM   #12
Tom Servo
Staff
 
Join Date: September 27, 2008
Location: Foothills of the Appalachians
Posts: 10,086
Quote:
Before I became a dealer, I too, thought the 4473's were a form of registration. Now I realize just how laughable that is. It would have to be the single most inefficient method imaginable.
I've seen pictures of the office in Martinsburg where paperwork from out-of-business dealers goes. Due to the Tiahrt amendment, the government is prohibited from collating them into any kind of database, so it all just gets stacked in boxes.

Thousands and thousands of boxes, organized only by the name of the dealer, and the date they went out of business. If there's a trace, and it goes back to a dealer who's no longer operating, someone in that office has to physically dig through that whole mountain of stuff. And, that assumes that the dealer sent in the records in a complete, intact, and organized format.
__________________
In the depth of winter I finally learned that there was in me an invincible summer.
--Albert Camus
Tom Servo is offline  
Old November 30, 2011, 10:09 AM   #13
dieselbeef
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 3, 2011
Location: myakka city fl
Posts: 197
well thanks for the info...i was curious more in a way of what i might still be holding vs what someone THOUGHT i might still be holding i used the analogy of the tags office in the original post.
anyways i guess it really dont matter since no matter what i could always deny having any weapons

just how did the whole gun siezure thing during katrina go down if someone wouldfill me in on that...and the reality of how they knew who had guns and how they went to confiscate any firearms during the martial law? escapade there

thanks
dieselbeef is offline  
Old November 30, 2011, 11:58 AM   #14
full case load
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 10, 2010
Posts: 122
On a side bar, some states may keep a list. I know CA does for some weapons. I gave the CA Dept. of Justice; Bureau of Firearms, my name and requested a list of what they showed me owning. It had not been kept up to date as it showed several handguns I had since traded or sold well over twenty years ago. I was able to update fairly easy. Anyway, it may be worth your time to check your state records, too.
__________________
live and let live
full case load is offline  
Old November 30, 2011, 02:52 PM   #15
Hardcase
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 14, 2009
Location: Sunny Southern Idaho
Posts: 1,901
Quote:
just how did the whole gun siezure thing during katrina go down
If the police or National Guard saw a firearm, they confiscated it. As they were going door-to-door doing searches for survivors or victims, if they found a firearm in a building, it was seized. If a person was carrying a firearm and it was seen, it was seized.

My impression is that the Superintendent of Police decided in the heat of the moment that he didn't want anyone but police and Guard armed, and the mayor backed him up.
__________________
Well we don't rent pigs and I figure it's better to say it right out front because a man that does like to rent pigs is... he's hard to stop - Gus McCrae
Hardcase is offline  
Old December 1, 2011, 03:08 PM   #16
dieselbeef
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 3, 2011
Location: myakka city fl
Posts: 197
10-4..was wondering how they knew who had what...
dieselbeef is offline  
Old December 1, 2011, 03:15 PM   #17
Don P
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 17, 2005
Location: Florida
Posts: 4,775
Yep as many stated the only one who knows about your guns is the one who has the 4473's. If you purchased 10 guns at 10 different dealers then 10 dealers know that you own 1 firearm (the 1 purchased from that dealer) and of coarse you hopefully know how many guns you own
__________________
NRA Life Member, NRA Range Safety Officer, IDPA Safety Officer
As you are, I once was, As I am, You will be.
Don P is offline  
Old December 2, 2011, 03:34 PM   #18
Daugherty16
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 10, 2008
Location: Live Free or Die state
Posts: 259
Inefficiency - The Hallmark of Government

and in this limited instance, i am glad they are inefficient. I don't want them to have excess resources sitting around with nothing to do, and say

"hey, lets take all these records and build them into an illegal and unauthorized datebase we can use to monitor all these gun-toting freaks out there".

"Yeah, sure would be nice to know how many AR-15's Billy Bob has got his hands on".

"Yeah, and you know what? In a hurricane, Billy Bob would be the first one we've got to disarm..."

having that information would be too tempting and it would get put to bad usage.
__________________
"To my mind it is wholly irresponsible to go into the world incapable of preventing violence, injury, crime, and death. How feeble is the mindset to accept defenselessness... How pathetic." - - Ted Nugent

"Cogito, Ergo Armitum Sum" - (I Think, Therefore I Am Armed)- - anon.
Daugherty16 is offline  
Old December 3, 2011, 08:23 AM   #19
dieselbeef
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 3, 2011
Location: myakka city fl
Posts: 197
thats kinda what i was thinkin also
dieselbeef is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:39 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.11291 seconds with 9 queries