The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old December 8, 2011, 07:59 AM   #26
Double Naught Spy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2001
Location: Forestburg, Montague County, Texas
Posts: 10,465
Quote:
Took 23 hits and was still in the fight.
Yes, the article said he took 23 hits, but did not say he was still in the fight after 23 hits.

Quote:
NYPD Officers are mandated to train twice a year with their service pistol, and qualify with it once a year. As with any off duty, or second gun they are authorized to use. They get three tries to qualify before being assigned to a rubber gun assignment. Then further training. Then failure to qualify would be grounds for dismissal. So their jobs depend on their ability to qualify. Also the department makes available 50 rounds per month to every member for practice.
While officers may have an allowance of 50 rounds a month for practice, if NYPD is like any other department, very few officers use that allotment and practice.

Many departments have the requirement that officers must qualify annually and failure to do so could result in firing. Few officers are ever fired for failing to qualify, however. This isn't because they are such great shots, but because the testing standards are so low and officers who don't pass the first time are given additional opportunities to pass as well as additional training on top of that to help them to pass.

Is it not strange that after being taught to shoot in the police academy and becoming qualified as police officers that officers have two whole range days a year of training, and yet are given 3 chances to qualify with a passing grade before the rubber gun assignment? This pattern is also similar to many other departments. If the training is so good and officers so well trained, then why in the world would officers be given up to three attempts to pass? Well, it is because there are officers every year who have trouble qualifying.

Based on what I find from the internet, for NYPD, passing is 78% hits (39 of 50) on the large gray COM area of a stationary target from fixed distances out to 25 yards and with a passing grade being able to be attained before by 15 yards. This is also similar to many other departments.

So basically, these shooting qualifications are actually a fairly low standard by which to measure gun proficiency and reflect little about how well an officer will be able to shoot in a conflict on the street where the bad guy, officer, or both may be in motion, using cover, etc.

Quote:
As far as 50 rounds per month. Thats 50 rounds more than most people shoot. Remember were talking about Police Officers, not firearms enthusiasts.
Well 50 rounds a month is more than most people shoot, but NYPD officers don't have to shoot 50 rounds a month and most people are not law enforcement officers who carry a gun and are involved in protecting the public. Comparing NYPD providing for up to 50 rounds a month for practice for its officers against the average citizen is a very low standard at which to assert the superiority of the officers' firearms skills.

With that said, here is an analysis of NYPD training from 2008. Unless things have changed, I don't see where they are allotted 50 rounds a month for practice and qualifications are twice a year with 45 rounds allowed for practice before taking the 50 round test of shooting a fixed distances of 7, 15, and 25 yards.
http://www.rand.org/pubs/monographs/2008/RAND_MG717.pdf

Quote:
Although many people shoot hundreds of rounds in ever range trip, I dont know that they are becoming any better a shot. Keep in mind that training is somewhat different than practicing.
I am not sure by the fairly low shooting standards and being given the option of 3 times to pass indicates that police officers (as a group) are becoming better shooters either. While most police officers may not be firearms enthusiasts, there are more likely to have to discharge their firearm in a conflict than the average citizen is.
__________________
"If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher."
-- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011
Double Naught Spy is offline  
Old December 8, 2011, 01:25 PM   #27
cptnugget
Member
 
Join Date: March 15, 2011
Posts: 15
It seems like most of us are considering marksmanship and other firearm training for police officers without also considering all the competing concerns about how a department spends its money and time. The time and money budgets for training of all kinds is a zero-sum game. Like most people on the forum I'd love to see better marksmanship, tactical and defensive training for my police officers; but if the choice is between increasing the training budget by $300,000 a year and having two more cops, I'm not sure the former is a slam dunk.

Likewise, police need legal, investigation and other training and these also cost money and time and affect how they perform their duties. We demand a lot of our police departments and I have huge respect and gratitude for those who keep the peace and enforce the law, and I can't say for sure that more time at the range is actually the best place for them to spend their money and time.

One thing my local gun club does is make its range available for police events and training. I'd love to see that kind of thing expanded, so we as firearms enthusiasts can help pay for and provide help to police departments and individual officers. It seems like booking noted experts to provide presentations, training and information to officers could be a way for the firearms community to put its money where its mouth is and help departments and officers increase their proficiency with their weapons.
cptnugget is offline  
Old December 8, 2011, 03:43 PM   #28
Double Naught Spy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2001
Location: Forestburg, Montague County, Texas
Posts: 10,465
Well you bring up a point I have mentioned in the past. We do want our cops to be able to perform exceptionally well (at everything), but few people are willing to suffer the increased taxation to make this possible.

Quote:
One thing my local gun club does is make its range available for police events and training. I'd love to see that kind of thing expanded, so we as firearms enthusiasts can help pay for and provide help to police departments and individual officers.
While this sounds good, the contribution will be extremely limited. In New York, how many of the 33,000+ officers are going to be able to take advantage of such an offer? Are the departments going to pay the officer's salary while he is accepting the free training? They will still have to pay the officers and cover their shifts and/or provide overtime compensation. Especially if not being paid, few officers are going to sacrifice their down time to training classes.
__________________
"If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher."
-- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011
Double Naught Spy is offline  
Old December 8, 2011, 06:26 PM   #29
cptnugget
Member
 
Join Date: March 15, 2011
Posts: 15
Quote:
While this sounds good, the contribution will be extremely limited. In New York, how many of the 33,000+ officers are going to be able to take advantage of such an offer? Are the departments going to pay the officer's salary while he is accepting the free training? They will still have to pay the officers and cover their shifts and/or provide overtime compensation. Especially if not being paid, few officers are going to sacrifice their down time to training classes.
These are all good points. And I can't imagine a department the scale of the NYPD doing something like this; it seems a little more practical in a less-populated area like the one I live in, with smaller departments and smaller budgets.
cptnugget is offline  
Old December 8, 2011, 09:09 PM   #30
Glenn Dee
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 9, 2009
Location: South Florida
Posts: 1,487
OK.... So i'll try to respond one comment at a time.

The number of officers who use the 50 rounds available per month is probably somewhare around 20%. More officers should use the ammo. But again the firearm is tha least used tool of most cops. As we get more gen X and young inexperienced officers... This percentage will probably fall.

Yes few officers are terminated for failure to qualify. I believe that has more to do with the quality of the training and coaching. In fact very few officers fail to qualify on the first try. In 25 years I've seen it happen only three or four times. Only seen one female officer terminated for inability to carry a firearm. She was an academy student. As far as testing standards being low? I dont know about that. 100 rounds. 70% to qualify, 81% is a sharpshooter, 91% an marksman, 100 % an expert.

Mostly the reason officers who fail to qualify are retrained, and given anither chance is mostly fudiciary. These Officers are civil service. It cost a lot to train them, and a lot to fire one. As I said before the firearm is the least used piece of equipment, and the least used skill of the police. There is actually the time and space to do some remediation if need be.

I'm not sure where you get the qual course info from... But it's not quite so simple. It's not 50 rounds... it's 100. During a typical summer outdoor cycle an officer will shoot between four, and five hundred rounds on several ranges Including the use of cover, and shooting at moving targets. In addition there is force on force training, and role playing. There is review of the shooting's in the past year, and their results. Weapons are inspected, and repared if need be. Then there are lectures about shooting and guns, firearm retention, tactics and use of cover. Then each string must disasemble and clean their firearm before they can leave. It's a full day of gun's, gun's and more gun's. Not a lot for gun guy's.. but plenty for those who arent enthusiasts. As I was told at the range.. THis is not so much for a gun guy like myself, but force feeding for those who dont have the firearms intrests I do. For me and guys like me it was a day of fun and games... and FREE AMMO.

Before any officer is assigned to the range, or allowed to take possesion of a firearm they must take the "deadly phiysical force" test. Unlike the three chances to qualify. You only get one shot at this brass ring. And you MUST pass with a 100% score. One shot and you must get 100%. Or you loose your job, and get dismissed from the academy. More critical than knowing how to shoot is knowing when to shoot. If you cant get that part in the first try... no reason teaching them how to shoot.
Glenn Dee is offline  
Old December 9, 2011, 11:08 AM   #31
Nordeste
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 8, 2011
Location: Asturias, Spain
Posts: 328
Would anyone be kind enough as to explain me what's the reason behind the adoption of the famous "New York trigger" for that deparment's Glocks? (provided you can forgive the off-topic). Just IMHO, the stock trigger at 5.5 lbs should be enough, shouldn't it?. In my agency we carry Beretta 92FS and the trigger pull in SA is around that same pull. In DA I estimate it to be no less than 9 lbs.

I guess the reason for that should be making sure that NY officers do not fire their weapons under stress unless they really want to do so, but I still think the stock trigger in a Glock should be enough.
Nordeste is offline  
Old December 9, 2011, 04:44 PM   #32
Double Naught Spy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2001
Location: Forestburg, Montague County, Texas
Posts: 10,465
Quote:
I'm not sure where you get the qual course info from... But it's not quite so simple. It's not 50 rounds... it's 100.
Really, see because I don't know where you get your information from. I posted the link to where my information came from, but you failed to look at the link. It came from the 2008 New York City Police Department Firearm Training and Firearm Discharge Review Process document to which I provided the link. See pages 35 and 36.

This test is echoed here....
http://forums.officer.com/forums/sho...Qualifications

However, this site says we are both wrong and it is actually 150 rounds.
http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/html/tr...m_tatics.shtml

Quote:
Yes few officers are terminated for failure to qualify.
Right, so your previous statement that their jobs depend on their ability to qualify really isn't a serious hurdle. It isn't like NYPD has some sort of particularly high standards for shooting prowess that really challenges the shooters. Pretty much everybody passes or is given multiple opportunities and additional retraining if they have trouble passing. And if your information is correct, then a passing grade of 70 is much less impressive. You would have to be a pretty serious screw up to fail to qualify.

Quote:
Mostly the reason officers who fail to qualify are retrained, and given anither chance is mostly fudiciary.
I really don't care what the reasoning is for coddling along firearms inept officers by giving them multiple attempts to take the test and even to get additional training in order to make that bare minimal qualifying score. It is scary to think that those officers actually exist and may have to use lethal force when the time comes and unless they have recently gone through retraining recently, probably aren't going to be able to shoot to the bare minimun standards they had trouble attaining during non-life threatening qualifications.

Firearms may be amongst some of the least used tools that cops carry, as you have said, but the issue of firearms use isn't one of frequency, but necessity and the consequences that result from improper use.
__________________
"If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher."
-- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011
Double Naught Spy is offline  
Old December 9, 2011, 09:23 PM   #33
Glenn Dee
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 9, 2009
Location: South Florida
Posts: 1,487
LOL OK My bad... 100 rounds with the service pistol/revolver, and 50 rounds with an off duty, or second gun. If an officer has no second gun he shoots that portion of the qualification with his service pistol.

I get my information from being there, and doing it for a few years.

If that I see that they upped the practice ammo from 50 to a hundred rounds. Thats a good thing.

There are a few more weapons in the inventory than mentioned here too.

And a few more indoor range locations. Well at least there was a couple of years ago.

The semi anual quals are done in two cycles. Indoor and outdoor. The indoor is not the official qual. However if an instructor see's an officer having difficulty he may have to shoot again.The outdoor qual is the score that will remain on your record.

AS far as the Rand report... While it appears to be thorough, I dont see it as having anything to do with reality. It's long winded repeats the same thing over and over, and makes suppositions based on ohhhh asking the wrong people the wrong questions? This isnt the first Rand study, and then there was the one by colombia university, and there was the LEAA study... This is nothing new. IMO trying to quantify something that changes all the time. IMO the most glaring example of innacuracy is the notion that Officers with 3.5 negative points on their records are more likely to discharge their firearms. That is true... But there is a perfectly good reason for this. ANY street cop would understand it.

Double Naught... I'm not disagreeing with you. In a perfect world all cops would be experts, all physicians would care about the paitents well being, all politicians would be honest... naaa thats taking it too far. I think all departments do the best they can with what they have. I believe the NYPD and all the departments that train there do an exemplary job of firearms training.

As I said the firearm is the least used tool the police officer has, and shooting the least used skill. But both have to work 100% when needed.

Speaking from experience. The training, and practice actually does prepare an officer for a gun fight. It works. The tactics work.
Glenn Dee is offline  
Old December 10, 2011, 01:56 AM   #34
Nordeste
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 8, 2011
Location: Asturias, Spain
Posts: 328
I agree with the previous fella, training makes the difference.
Nordeste is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:31 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.08630 seconds with 7 queries