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Old November 25, 2011, 12:24 PM   #1
Glenn E. Meyer
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NYPD report on 2010 shooting incidents

http://s3.documentcloud.org/document...rge-report.pdf

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/25/ny...l?ref=nyregion

NYPD shooting reports. Of course, they don't directly transfer to civilian SD but still interesting.

Interesting tidbits - most close up, half used one hand, low report of sights usage, most at 6-10 feet, one at fifty (a miss), most didn't have time to get to cover (standard SD cliche).

Large drop in number of shootings from the past.

Some bystanders hit.
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Old November 25, 2011, 12:38 PM   #2
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30 animals shot, 8 human fatalities, 16 human wounded.

54 targets taken out (including bystanders ) by 52 officers, with 236 shots fired.

I don't want to give them any compliments, but that's a lot better than the LAPD figures I've seen.
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Old November 25, 2011, 02:56 PM   #3
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From the Appendix, at page 49:

Quote:
On August 8, at approximately 0300 hours, in the confines of the 32nd Precinct, four officers became involved in an exchange of gunfire with two male Hispanic subjects, resulting in the demise of one subject and injuries to the other. . . . Police heard gunfire and responded: one uniformed officer approached from the south as an unmarked vehicle with one plainclothes sergeant and two plainclothes officers approached from the north. At some point, the second subject achieved control of the firearm [from the first], and possibly fired on the first subject. He also discharged a round at the lone uniformed officer, who had now closed to within several feet. The uniformed officer returned fire, while the plainclothes officers at the opposite end of the block also began to shoot. . . . Of the criminal participants, the first subject was struck six times and succumbed to his injuries, and the second subject was struck 23 times, but survived. (A grand jury refused to indict the second subject for firing on the uniformed officer.)
Took 23 hits and was still in the fight. Yowza. And what's up with that Grand Jury??
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Old November 25, 2011, 08:27 PM   #4
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And what's up with that Grand Jury??
Did you forget, . . . it's New York

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Old November 27, 2011, 04:56 PM   #5
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Apparently, the NYPD remains deficient in its training; an ongoing criticism.
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Old December 2, 2011, 01:47 AM   #6
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This makes me think about how many rounds should be used per police officer to give adequate practice each year?

If you assume 100 rounds per the 34,500 officers of the NYPD, that equals 3,450,000 rounds. At $0.10 per round that is $340,000 ($680,000 @ $0.20 per round) just for ammo.

I have talked to one police officer from New Orleans who have admitted that he never took his S&W model 10 out of the holster for the 25 - 30 years he was employed by NOPD. Conversation occurred back in the 70s.
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Old December 2, 2011, 08:11 AM   #7
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They spend their money on "community relations " instead of police training .But they don't understand that one shooting incident can wipe out a years worth of community relations !!
About 10 years ago a study showed that in actual gunfights the cops hit their target only 10 % of the time !!
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Old December 2, 2011, 09:47 AM   #8
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Training (or lack thereof) seems to be more of an issue around the country. The high cost of ammunition has resulted in many departments failing to quality officers with anything but their service pistol, and there is no ammo for practice. This is especially prevalent in small and poor communities. And when you don't make much money and the department does not see training as their priority, are you going to go out of your way to buy ammo and practice yourself? Considering most cops are not really gun guys, it appears not.
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Old December 2, 2011, 10:30 PM   #9
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handgun practice

The first time I was in the Navy ('65-'69) practice to qualify with the .45 was no problem, and always available. The second time (late '70s through eary '80s) I was told I could check out a pistol, but had to buy my own ammunition. This was not a rank issue, I was a senior officer.
Recent Iraq/Afghan Vet's I see at the VA Medical Center have told me there's not a great deal of time or support for practice now.
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Old December 4, 2011, 07:50 AM   #10
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I wish criminals published an annual report id like to compare the two and see just what those taxpayers are getting for their money.
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Old December 4, 2011, 10:10 AM   #11
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Quote:
The high cost of ammunition has resulted in many departments failing to quality officers with anything but their service pistol, and there is no ammo for practice.
That is a BS excuse. One lawsuit in legal fees alone will fund the entire NYC department training with several hundred rounds a year. That does not even include if they lose.
Quote:
Of the criminal participants, the first subject was struck six times and succumbed to his injuries, and the second subject was struck 23 times, but survived. (A grand jury refused to indict the second subject for firing on the uniformed officer.)


Quote:
only one officer reported using the gun’s sight before firing.
Wow! That really is a training issue there. I have not used the pistol much in combat but I always make the effort to aim.

Quote:
There were also eight cases that the department found involving the unauthorized use of firearms. They included three suicides in which officers’ firearms were used, and two shootings that involved what the department described as personal disputes.


I can't get the report to open. I am sure there is a lot of useful information in there.
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Old December 4, 2011, 10:43 AM   #12
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only one officer reported using the gun’s sight before firing.
I don't think that means only "only one officer used his sights" I think it means only "one officer remembers using his sights" which is understandable.

If you are trained, and practice what you are trained, it becomes "motor memory" you do it without thinking and you often don't remember doing it.

An example from Linda Miller and Keith Cunningham's book 'SECRETS OF MENTAL MARKSMANSHIP, they relate a story of a state trooper making a traffic stop where the bandit stepped out of the car and fired at the trooper hitting him in the chest with a load of buckshot.

The next thing the trooper remembered was that he was changing magazines and scanning left and right. The bandit was laying against the car "stitched from belt buckle to throat with seven 45 slugs.

The trooper didn't remember using his sights, but he did. It appears this trooper was a ISPC shooter. He practices and fired thousands of rounds where he developed muscle memory.

Fear often blocks out your actions from your memory, but training + practice = muscle memory, whether you remember it or not under stress you training and practice kicks in.

Most shoot outs involving cop and bandits, or soldiers (one on one), are won by "LUCK" not training, simply because neither the cop nor the soldier are willing to put in the effort to develop the "muscle memory" needed to overcome the luck of their opponent.

Training alone wont do it. All cops and soldiers are trained, its what they do after that training that overcomes luck.
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Old December 4, 2011, 11:07 AM   #13
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Fear often blocks out your actions from your memory, but training + practice = muscle memory, whether you remember it or not under stress you training and practice kicks in.

Well put. Read Dave Grossman's excellent book On Combat for more on this subject and others.
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Old December 4, 2011, 11:20 AM   #14
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Actual working link to report:

http://www.documentcloud.org/documen...ge-report.html

More noteworthy comments:
Quote:
A sergeant on scene deployed a conducted energy device, but it was ineffective and the subject was able to pull the prongs from his body.
Quote:
Ersatz experts in police tactics who have never been police officers occasionally claim that shooting to wound is a valid choice even in life-or-death combat situations: they are mistaken.
Quote:
If a discharge causes death or injury, the officer who fired is required to submit to a Breathalyzer test.
Quote:
Of the 33 animals involved, 19 were killed and seven injured by police gunfire. All but one of the animals involved were dogs, with 30 of the 32 dogs being pit bulls.
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Last edited by MTT TL; December 4, 2011 at 11:41 AM.
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Old December 4, 2011, 06:53 PM   #15
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This is coming from a non LEO let me start off by saying that....but why can't we train our nations police officers to be equal in Marksmanship to say the level of a Marine straight out of basic?

My buddy's little brother is almost done with his 4, never went to an active combat zone, most of his post basic training has not been directly weapons related, but he is probably the best <...> shot I have ever seen in person.


If cities really wanted to reduce the already relatively low number of officers wounded and killed in the line of duty, why not simply give them significantly more firearms training?

Last edited by Art Eatman; December 7, 2011 at 10:15 AM. Reason: Grammaw doesn't like cursing.
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Old December 4, 2011, 07:12 PM   #16
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....but why can't we train our nations police officers to be equal in Marksmanship to say the level of a Marine straight out of basic?
Because of funding and the fact that most cops simply don't care.

Using the Marine out of basic is a bad example because with civilian LE you're talking about pistol/revolvers vs. rifles for the Marines. Completely different ball game.

Even still, training anyone, rifle or pistol, does no good if the subject doesn't practice what they learn.

It takes an effort on the individuals part. In today's economy local PDs just don't have the money, if they did not many officers would take advantage of it. Too many snivel because they have to qualify once or twice a year. They sure aren't going to spend the money and time to practice on their own. They would demand that the department buy the ammo, and pay them for the time they spend practicing.

This is not a new problem by a long shot, I started in '74, became a range officer in 76. I'm sure the problem existed long before I got into LE.

You have to fight the "IT WONT HAPPEN TO ME" attitude.
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Old December 4, 2011, 07:18 PM   #17
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There is a huge difference between soldier and cops that most people don't understand. Soldiers use firepower, threats and intimidation to accomplish their tasks. Cops are not supposed to rely on these but more on diplomacy.

With the policing jobs being performed by soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan and the perceived rise in threats domestically from militants the two roles seem to be getting closer.
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Old December 4, 2011, 07:29 PM   #18
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Hello eveyone...

Unless anyone else has had the privildge of training at an NYPD facility, you probably wouldnt understand the level of training.

NYPD Officers are mandated to train twice a year with their service pistol, and qualify with it once a year. As with any off duty, or second gun they are authorized to use. They get three tries to qualify before being assigned to a rubber gun assignment. Then further training. Then failure to qualify would be grounds for dismissal. So their jobs depend on their ability to qualify. Also the department makes available 50 rounds per month to every member for practice.

In addition members of the service who are authorized to use firearms other than a standard service pistol must also train, and qualify with that gun or gun's. So a member authorized to use an M/4, a Baretta 92, Walther PPk a Remington 700, Ithica or mossberg shotgun, or a stevens 311 would spend a significant amount of time at the range.

The NYPD probably spends more on firearms training than any 10 departments put together. They have more people assigned to firearms training than many other departments have sworn members. The NYPD has a very extensive facility for developing tactics, and research. The NYPD does NOT spend more on community relations than forearms training. Most people do not even understand what community relations is or what they do.

I do admit that since the transition to autoloaders the round count has gone up... off the charts in my opinion. But I also atribute that to the quality of the younger officers, and the political climate in NY these days.
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Old December 7, 2011, 01:47 AM   #19
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Um, training twice a year and qualifying once a year is not a particularly high bar. Actually, come to think of it, it is a rather low one. Though no doubt their budget, given their size, is undoubtedly quite large; a case of looks being deceiving.
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Old December 7, 2011, 08:17 AM   #20
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I am not a LEO but 50 rounds a month? I go through at least 200 a month and I am just a civilian.... I know a solider is different than a cop, I know they have very different goals and ways of getting things done but the bottom line officers are more and more often facing "military style"(Note, i did not say "assault rifles" or "assault weapons") threats and bad guys who may be themselves ex military.

If that is true that the NYPD spends that much more on officer training than any other department, bravo for them.

But IMO as a nation we should be spending more to train officers in the fundamentals of what they need to survive an armed encounter; marksmanship and situational awareness.
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Old December 7, 2011, 06:40 PM   #21
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Hey Guys.

There is a whole lot more training than two days... These two days are just dedicated range days. There is also 16 hrs in service training every quarter. Tactical street training was going on every six months. Station-house training once in a while.

As far as 50 rounds per month. Thats 50 rounds more than most people shoot. Remember were talking about Police Officers, not firearms enthusiasts. Although many people shoot hundreds of rounds in ever range trip, I dont know that they are becoming any better a shot. Keep in mind that training is somewhat different than practicing. I truely believe that shooting skills are perishable... but do we need to shoot 200 rounds a month to stay accurate? The training and practice I mentioned is mandated... nothing to keep anyone from practicing on their own.

While everyone recognize the handgun is as much an officers sign of office as his shield. It is the least often if ever used piece of equipment he must carry. However it is the only piece of equipment that must perform 100%, 100% of the time. So there is something of a trade off... Enough training to maintain proficiency with a tool you will probably never have to use. Such is the nature of firearms.

I guess my point is this. The NYPD is a well trained department that mandates practice. And still the shock of an actual gunfight often challanges all the training and practice. I think this translates well to the civilian world. If that shock can effect a trained Police Officer... So will it most civilians. IMO the question is "What to do about it?"
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Old December 7, 2011, 07:14 PM   #22
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If that shock can effect a trained Police Officer... So will it most civilians. IMO the question is "What to do about it?"
IMO the answer for "civilians" is to avoid confrontations if at all possible.

Cops, unfortunately, must face the music. But then, the law is slightly more accommodating when it comes to the police.
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Old December 7, 2011, 11:00 PM   #23
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Did you look at the Appendix? Things seem a lot better than in '71!
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Old December 7, 2011, 11:08 PM   #24
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Took 23 hits and was still in the fight. Yowza. And what's up with that Grand Jury??
They figured being shot 23 times was punishment enough.....
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Old December 8, 2011, 06:16 AM   #25
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I dont think there is a solution honestly. People think if you train hard enough your gunfight is gonna go down like a john woo flick but it aint. Nothings gonna guarantee you'l be calm cool and know exactley what to do in all instances. Law enforcement is dangerous work and gunfights are even more dangerous. Training is great but it doesnt guarantee anything as the numbers prove above. Look at this senario. Two men point guns at eachother and begin firing at 1 yard away, both get shot but are still alive, one man jumps behind a vehical and the other behind a wall. Now which guy is the cop that spent a week at thunder ranch?
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