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Old November 26, 2011, 02:55 AM   #26
youngunz4life
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If you feel threatened(for whatever reason//not trying to use a legal term this time, just that you are Truly worried), you should do something before they come upon you in my opinion. There is a much better chance you'll HAVE NO CHOICE but to draw if you do not confront the situation ahead of time. Either way, you'll definately be in more danger & more vulnerable.

I have never had this happen to me, but if I was nervous, scared, take your pick @ vocabulary, I am going to confront the situation before it becomes drastic. There is universal language you can use without drawing. Of course you would be stopped and facing the follower(s). Command voice was mentioned and very important; you aren't speaking and looking over your shoulder as you keep moving. Remember, you have already forseen possible danger(I have never had this happen to me @ least not in a nervous, dangerous sense).

Now, if 'keep moving' is a viable option then by all means do that. I am referring to when you have made a logical, informed decision you need to DO SOMETHING. Sometimes in life you need to do something or the anti can be upped! I firmly believe this.

If things continue, at least follower(s) know you aren't bluffing and/or possible consequences are coming. I, myself, am not worrying about a brandish law. I am protecting myself and my family- I can cross that bridge later and I have trust in my fellow citizens(to a point). I mean these guys stay silent and just keep coming. I am not running unless I am positive I can get away. I have two young kids and a wife too. I can't just cut and run anyways. If you ignore me that is another issue...most criminals will have a story, but it is possible they have you and reaching you in their sites.

*I believe my answer was the same on the 'fishing on the lake' thread a ways back(can't remember the title). ...the one where the man came out of the wilderness ansd just kept coming without saying anything
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Old November 26, 2011, 03:17 AM   #27
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^or somewhat similar

all the best



Quote:
Forgot to mention, I don't draw a knife unless presented with a weapon, or if they are after a female I'm with. However, I know I'm better off without a weapon if they have a knife or club. Against a gun, I'd rather get out of there before any shooting happens, seeing as I don't have a pistol... But I'm working on that. Though in California it's rather useless, as I can't carry here.
and,

sorry about Cali...you do realize though if these guys mean business they move pretty darn quick right? not to mention there are two of them
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Last edited by youngunz4life; November 26, 2011 at 03:23 AM. Reason: adding a poster's quote & response
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Old November 26, 2011, 05:20 AM   #28
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How about giving your wife the keys let her get in the drivers seat and fire up the car while you confront the followers. More of a chance of stopping their advance long enough to jump in the passenger seat and book
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Old November 26, 2011, 05:23 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by youngunz4life
sorry about Cali...you do realize though if these guys mean business they move pretty darn quick right? not to mention there are two of them
Yes, I do. No need to feel bad, in Oregon I still won't carry often. It's not all that bad out here though, even in the local ghetto. I've never had any issues, no one in my family has unless they got themselves caught up in the gang crap.

They may move fast, but so do I. If they want something from me, they can have it. If it has to come to violence, I won't hesitate. To run. If I have to fight my way out, I will do that. It sounds silly to most gun people, because I'm a knife wielding lunatic to them.
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Old November 26, 2011, 06:25 AM   #30
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scary possibility and/or consequence if you don't do something

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Kelsey_Smith

look at the overview...this is what worries me(I have a son & daughter). I was reading a much more informative article, but I 'lost' it. On the above link, read the overview.

I remembered her name and googled it though(the article was written w/heavy descriptions on the target abduction as she got near her vehicle). It was written between her abduction date(june 2nd) and the day they found her body(june 7th). If I find it again, I'll post it. The theory of the car door hindering maneuver time might have some weight to it.

all the best+hopefully you're near OR so you can utilize your rights more when you wish but I guess Cali ain't that bad...some people seem to love it.
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Old November 26, 2011, 06:45 AM   #31
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The OP, Ruark, or anyone else, might not be as versed in martial arts as you might be so what you would do might not fit the OP.

The OP asked about “the draw point” so he’s speaking of one who is armed. Being armed puts the OP at an advantage, or at least equal capability.

Dwight made a good suggestion: Find somewhere to “hole up” and then see what develops, being prepared to assist the followers in their “development”. The situation of the OP is not one to “test” if you’re being followed. You ARE being followed whether the intent is harmless or harmful.

Yes, we may say “you shouldn’t have been there” or “use situational awareness”, but that doesn’t cut ice when you are already there.

It’s tough call but being armed does tenderize the situation.

We carry for one reason; self defense. So, defend yourself as needed and don’t be hesitant about it.
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Old November 26, 2011, 05:12 PM   #32
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My little NAA would be in my hand as soon as we started walking to the car. No need to decide when to "draw", just when to shoot.
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Old November 26, 2011, 05:39 PM   #33
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My BUG is carried in my pocket. I would have my hand in mo pocket with a grip ready to draw if need be. My girlfriend has a key to my truck on her keyring, if I say to her you drive honey she knows what I mean. If I have to draw then I will.
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Old November 26, 2011, 07:01 PM   #34
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Pull your gun on some people just going the same direction as you will you busted. Also turning and asking "Why the f*&$ you following me?" may not be real bright and just antagonize some one who is not following you. Thats rather insulting and is a good way to start a fight.
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Old November 27, 2011, 02:46 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ClayInTx
The OP, Ruark, or anyone else, might not be as versed in martial arts as you might be so what you would do might not fit the OP.

The OP asked about “the draw point” so he’s speaking of one who is armed. Being armed puts the OP at an advantage, or at least equal capability.
I completely agree. With the whole post, just didn't quote it all.
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Old November 27, 2011, 10:53 AM   #36
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(OP) Thanks - yes, I'm just trying to pinpoint when drawing is justified, both practically and legally, in a situation where there's no CLEAR threat... yet. In Austin, for example, there are a few areas in town that are extremely popular for people - lots of night clubs, bars, etc. and being downtown, parking is inevitably several blocks away down some VERY dark streets. After last call (about 2 a.m.) people start trickling out to their cars.

But in any case, I was just wondering what your responses would be, even though the two guys aren't "doing" anything - just walking. After they turn left and right with you a few times, it becomes a 99% certainty that they are following you. But in some ways, it's like somebody driving back and forth past your house. It's apparently something fishy, but the local LEO will say there's nothing he can do because it's a public street. So can you run out and confront the driver with a gun? No.

From a legal standpoint, this is sort of the same situation. I'm thinking of displaying the gun WITHOUT pointing or brandishing it, if that's legally possible. Say, take it out and hold it up as if showing it to your friend, then put it back, as a subtle way of telling the followers, "I'm armed. Your call."
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Old November 27, 2011, 11:24 AM   #37
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This post assumes that you are armed and not so much a helpless victim waiting for death.

First, there can be no substitute for simple eye contact. Turn, make contact, and show no fear. then go about your business.

you've just put them on notice. You know they are there, you're not frightened, and you've given them fair warning that you aren't a sheep.

At that point, displaying a weapon isn't the right thing to do, but if you haven't turned them away, draw it, and hold it in concealment, and if you are confronted, let it be discretely visible. Brandishing is a vague legal term, but in general, before you're arrested, you'll have to have the thing "in action." Showing your hand on the butt of a pistol inside your jacket or wasteband isn't technically "brandishing."

This is my part. If you have been followed for a distance, or fully up to your vehicle or (private) destination, that act probably constitutes at least 50% of proof of intent to harm.

You've been followed in a predatory manner. You're confronted at close range. They were nonverbally warned off, and ignored it. If you see a weapon displayed of any sort, draw and show, and at that point, any, and I do mean any, aggressive moves justifies lethal force. Showing that they intend to attack an armed man justifies immediate defensive actions.

Of course, this will all be reviewed and held to the strictest standards of hindsight by the legal teams that will possibly be lined up with no intention in the world other than destroying your life because you behaved badly towards a couple of fellow model citizens.
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Old November 28, 2011, 05:26 PM   #38
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Only two? They will learn fear if they follow me.
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Old November 29, 2011, 11:59 AM   #39
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Ruark,

You raise a good question in the OP, but the context you recently mention indicates that a little "growth" or "maturity" is needed in your lifestyle choices.

Quote:
In Austin, for example, there are a few areas in town that are extremely popular for people - lots of night clubs, bars, etc. and being downtown, parking is inevitably several blocks away down some VERY dark streets. After last call (about 2 a.m.) people start trickling out to their cars.
My first advice is to not be in the situation you referenced (late night/early morning, in the presence of large numbers of potential intoxicated folks, in dark streets, etc...) if you can avoid it due to the potential risks. If you cannot avoid it for some reason, others have posted some acceptable responses to employ.

Since you mention Austin, note that in Texas you cannot legally carry in a bar, nightclub or other 51% establishment. Therefore if you have been in one of these places, you have either gone there without a sidearm or you have carried there in defiance of the law.
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Old November 29, 2011, 01:47 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TXHootus
My first advice is to not be in the situation you referenced (late night/early morning, in the presence of large numbers of potential intoxicated folks, in dark streets, etc...) if you can avoid it due to the potential risks. If you cannot avoid it for some reason, others have posted some acceptable responses to employ.
Growth and maturity? So, it's not okay to go out and have a drink with friends on a Friday night because there's a higher chance of an altercation?

You're more likely to die in your bathroom after a couple drinks, or even sober. A mature person does whatever they please, within reason, responsibly. It doesn't mean they hide at home.
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Old November 29, 2011, 02:16 PM   #41
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Quote:
A mature person does whatever they please, within reason, responsibly. It doesn't mean they hide at home.
You are precisely correct. Perhaps I was a bit remiss in labeling behaviour. A mature person will use reason when making a decision, and may choose to include such variables as risk and such strategies as avoidance in the process. If the OP, you or anyone else maturely chooses to discount risk in decision making or to have a drink with friends on a Friday night, it is certainly your right to do so. Other folks may take a different path.
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Old November 29, 2011, 05:35 PM   #42
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Quote:
How about giving your wife the keys let her get in the drivers seat and fire up the car while you confront the followers. More of a chance of stopping their advance long enough to jump in the passenger seat and book
Something like that.
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Old November 29, 2011, 05:41 PM   #43
youngunz4life
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when it goes down it happens in a flash(no pun intended) - many times in that second where in his sites he sees a hesitation and/or chance to make a move.

99.9% chance it is normal; being ready is the main idea in my book IF I see a danger or feel something is wrong. Unfortunately these scumbags are cowards. they strike from behind as much as possible, so the surprise factor is the disadvantage for us good guys.
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Old November 29, 2011, 06:14 PM   #44
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What happened to my "quote" button????

TXHootus, I'm 61 years old. I stopped being mature a long time ago. In any case, the bars I was referring to were just an example; I really DON'T go bar-hopping anymore. But there are still music venues, restaurants, late movies with vast parking lots, etc. You get the picture.
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Old November 29, 2011, 06:33 PM   #45
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As someone has stated already, It's dark & you should have a Flaslight, A Good one
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Old November 30, 2011, 03:54 AM   #46
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I would turn around (because I hate my back facing any possible opponent) and ask directly "are you following me?" I reckon the bad guy would be surprised that he was caught and being asked directly and hopefully just walk away.

If he is actually not following me and has his/her car next to mine I am sure we would just laugh about it.
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Old November 30, 2011, 10:17 AM   #47
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Quote:
TXHootus, I'm 61 years old. I stopped being mature a long time ago.
Point taken, Ruark. My apologies.

FWIW, simply because you recognize potential risks in the scenario you described, you are likely to be in a state of higher awareness and will have opportunities to act, making you a less attractive target to the followers. Lots of good suggestions from the other posters regarding things to consider doing.
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Old November 30, 2011, 02:50 PM   #48
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I tend to think that "lateral" moves are good. What I mean by that is something that gives you information and/or communicates your intent in a way that is not normally considered threatening. Challenges are sometimes met out of habit.

With that in mind, I favor things like
Circling back with a wide berth. ("Ah, I left it on the table!")
Jogging away ("We're going to be late!" etc)
Multiple changes in direction
Politely acknowledging the followers (informing others that you see them)

If they are still following, after I took such measures, I would try to go back to a highly populated area where people would notice an attack and/or a place where I could build enough distance to either get in a vehicle or lose them.

If all else fails, confront them with a good command voice (weapon ready to deploy).
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Old November 30, 2011, 03:46 PM   #49
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It seems we should all be more aware after leaving any "downtown nightspot". Most CCW states do not allow you to carry your weapon into clubs, bars, dance halls, etc that serve alcohol. Therefore, everyone coming out of them is presumed to be un-armed. Think about it, the crooks know this and will take advantage. I park close, under the lights, or go somewhere else.
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Old December 1, 2011, 10:29 AM   #50
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Quote:
You're walking back to your car, possibly with your wife, after dark, after spending a few hours in a downtown night spot, where the nearest parking is several blocks away in a dark parking lot (a common situation). You notice a couple of unsavory-looking guys following you, but you're not sure if they're following you, or just walking back to their car, too.

As you approach your parking lot, you notice they're still about 15 feet behind you. They turn left and right when you do, even walk between cars when you do. Now it's 99% certain they're following you. You look back and remark, sternly, "...you guys, following us, or what?" They remain silent.

Given the ramifications of drawing out a gun, how do you deal with this situation? What is the "draw point," so to speak?
Indiana is an open carry state. I grab my wife by the hand, find an opening, and walk out into the street. City streets are well lit, and I am now the center of attention. Anyone nefarious will obviously avoid being involved in such an obvious situation.

Obviously you should avoid this tactic if traffic is traveling at a high rate of speed.

Your route to your car via the sidewalk is the box. Think outside.

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