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Old November 23, 2011, 03:34 PM   #26
raftman
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I've had 3 Tokarev pistols (still have 1) and have found them to be vry decent guns. They are in some respects a little outdated, but accuracy, reliability, and durability are pretty good with the TT.

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But with your huge population and Communist rule that makes it difficult to come out with a quality product.
The degree to which China is actually communist anymore is somewhat debatable. The ruling party indeed still calls itself the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) but the economic policy doesn't quite fit that bill to the same extent as before.

In either case, firearms seem to be something of an exception to the idea of low quality commie goods. Communist countries didn't produce much of anything fantastic in the way of consumer goods (this is because they didn't have to compete with foreign makers, why make a washing machine better than a Maytag if no one in the country can get a Maytag anyways?). Their weapons on the other hand did have to compete with foreign ones, after all, you can't fend off a capitalist invasion with decidedly inferior firearms, nor can you make much money selling firearms to countries if the firearms you sell are decidedly inferior to foreign competition. As a result, the communists did produce quality firearms.
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Old November 23, 2011, 03:43 PM   #27
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I was beginning to think I was alone in hating the Tokarev. I fired a 1938 or 39 Russian one and it is the only handgun I've used that I positively disliked. It worked, so I can't call it junk - and I do actually like the 7.62x25 round (coz it's cheap and shoots flames ) - but the pistol was basically the Lada of handguns. It feels like it was designed by someone who had only a passing familiarity with the human hand.

Given that it works, that might be deemed acceptable - but when you compare it to what people were making in other countries in those days, it does not measure up well (BHP, 1911, P38 etc. )
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Old November 23, 2011, 03:45 PM   #28
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That was a really good nonparitsan summary, raftman, and I agree
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Old November 23, 2011, 03:51 PM   #29
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The Tokagypt was made in Hungary by FEG for Egypt, but then Egypt cancelled the order. Hungary then sold them on the Eurpean market, IIRC.
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Old November 23, 2011, 04:00 PM   #30
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I had a Norinco 213 (commercial version of the Type 54) in 9mm and, while it wasn't the finest gun I've ever owned, it wasn't all that bad either. The grip angle was a bit odd compared to what we Americans are used to and it did point low with a one-handed hold, but using a two-handed hold it was never a problem. The safety was a joke, but then again a safety on a Tokarev has always been an afterthought anyway and I always just ignored the stupid thing (mine was a range gun only) and simply kept the chamber empty until I was ready to shoot. I will say that despite it's shortcomings, that pistol was very accurate with even the cheapest ammo (it was the only gun I've ever shot that actually seemed to like Brown Bear 115gr JHP).
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Old November 23, 2011, 04:05 PM   #31
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huh, weird...

I had a romanian tok that I put some wolff springs in and only shot new prvi partizan ammo out of, and it got better groups than my 1911.

It never, NEVER jammed, misfired, misfeed etc.

It was a great, inexpensive gun that was cool and enjoyable, the only reason I got rid of it was to trade it towards a nice SIG P6 that my LGS was selling for about $75-100 cheaper than anywhere else, couldn't pass up the opportunity...
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Old November 23, 2011, 09:44 PM   #32
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To the OP, is that just your opinion, or is this many other's opinion's?

I don't have a TT-33, but would consider a Yoga model. JG has them for $189 on sale. But it would be on my long list. I'm happy with my CZ52's.
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Old November 23, 2011, 10:22 PM   #33
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Gentlemen I have been hunting for a TT33, or CZ52, or Zastava 57 for 2 months, if they are lousy and you own one contact me I'd be glad to purchase it.
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Old November 23, 2011, 10:34 PM   #34
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Oh one more thing about the 7.62x25mm round. It will go straight through a class II military vest and kevlar helmets, ask the Polish. Nato did trials of the kevlar vest (class I, and helmet) to prove to the Polish Officer corps that kevlar could resist a 9x19mm round. It did so. Think it was a Polish Major that pulled his TT33 and shot a hole through both sides of the kevlar helmet then laughed and holstered his gun. If you look at classIII vests it will say that they are resistant to 7.62x25 rounds.
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Old November 24, 2011, 12:00 AM   #35
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Quote:
Gentlemen I have been hunting for a TT33, or CZ52, or Zastava 57 for 2 months, if they are lousy and you own one contact me I'd be glad to purchase it.
While I plan on hanging on to my CZ-52, Classic Arms has Romanian Tokarevs, extra magazines, and surplus ammo in stock

http://www.classicfirearms.com/shotg...20handguns.htm

J&G Sales has both Romanian TT's and Yugo M57's too

http://www.jgsales.com/handguns-c-16_235.html

Quote:
Oh one more thing about the 7.62x25mm round. It will go straight through a class II military vest and kevlar helmets, ask the Polish. Nato did trials of the kevlar vest (class I, and helmet) to prove to the Polish Officer corps that kevlar could resist a 9x19mm round. It did so. Think it was a Polish Major that pulled his TT33 and shot a hole through both sides of the kevlar helmet then laughed and holstered his gun. If you look at classIII vests it will say that they are resistant to 7.62x25 rounds.
I don't doubt it. In Brassfetcher's tests, S&B 85gr FMJ was able to penetrate a Level II vest and still have enough gusto to be quite unpleasant for whatever, or whoever, happens to be on the other side.

http://www.brassfetcher.com/index_files/Page1242.htm
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Old November 24, 2011, 12:14 AM   #36
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Not to derail but what is TTC and M57 and TT-33? whats difference in all 3, i wanted the TT-33 but I know they make different ones, all same looking and caliber. Magazines are hard to find for the M57? I heard magazines are like $80 for them??


Please help thanks.
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Old November 24, 2011, 03:29 AM   #37
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Quote:
Not to derail but what is TTC and M57 and TT-33? whats difference in all 3, i wanted the TT-33 but I know they make different ones, all same looking and caliber. Magazines are hard to find for the M57? I heard magazines are like $80 for them??
For all intents and purposes the TTC and TT-33 can be considered identical. There may be some minor cosmetic differences, but main the difference between the TT-33 and TTC comes down to country of origin.

The M57 on the other hand has a few differences from the original TT design. The most notable being its use of a 9-rd magazine (compared with the 8-rd on the other Tokarev variants). These magazines are less common and cost more, but you do get one extra round. Other differences include the fact the M57 uses a full-length guide rod, this is a solution for a problem most will say doesn't exist and it does make re-assembly slightly trickier. The firing pin retention is also different with the M57, and the M57 also features a larger, more prominent mag release button. The M57 is made with a factory thumb safety (all of the other TT's only had a half-cock safety, but most have been modified to have thumb safeties in order to be exportable to the USA). Lastly, the M57 has a magazine disconnect safety (the pistol cannot fire without a magazine inserted). That's pretty much it as far as I can recall.
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Old November 24, 2011, 03:58 AM   #38
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Quote:
I believe that no actual East Bloc issue TT33 or other Tokarev variant had a manual safety. What you see in the USA is parts scabbed on to gain "points" to make importation possible.

There was the Tokagypt 9mm with manual safety, but then that is not East Bloc.
The Tokagypt was made in Hungary; I would consider that "Eastern Bloc." The safety used on the Norinco Type 54 is a copy of that safety.
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Old November 24, 2011, 08:04 AM   #39
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Thank you on both accounts Weblymkv.
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Old November 24, 2011, 10:52 AM   #40
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I thought guns were illegal in China.
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Old November 24, 2011, 11:02 AM   #41
Jim Watson
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Quote:
The Tokagypt was made in Hungary; I would consider that "Eastern Bloc." The safety used on the Norinco Type 54 is a copy of that safety.
Ah, you got me on that one. Did the Hungarians issue it themselves?
Heck, did the Egyptians issue it? All I have seen to come out of Egypt in any quantity were Beretta copy Helwans.

Do the Chinese use the Type 54 with safety or is that just something added to let it be sold to gullible Occidentals, which latter is my impression?
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Old November 24, 2011, 12:11 PM   #42
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An article about the growing gun culture in the PRC:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122394012224530655.html

China is not a communist country anymore, they are a capitalist nation but retain the communist authoritorian power structure.

I remember reading an old article in a surplus gun magazine about Chinese 9mm Toks imported in the late 80s-early '90s that claimed the barrels only had a life of 2,000 rounds.
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Old November 24, 2011, 12:52 PM   #43
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Quote:
I remember reading an old article in a surplus gun magazine about Chinese 9mm Toks imported in the late 80s-early '90s that claimed the barrels only had a life of 2,000 rounds.
Oh no! My 54-1 must be completely shot out! I better tell it to stop shooting such nice groups, it must not have heard about that.
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Old November 24, 2011, 03:08 PM   #44
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Quote:
I remember reading an old article in a surplus gun magazine about Chinese 9mm Toks imported in the late 80s-early '90s that claimed the barrels only had a life of 2,000 rounds.
I think that is what was stated in the manual that came with the gun.
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Old November 24, 2011, 04:00 PM   #45
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"A six-month campaign this year netted 79,000 guns, 1.8 million replica guns and 5.75 million bullets, the Ministry of Public Security said last month. A similar effort in 2006 turned up 178,000 guns and 638,000 replicas in four months."

Wow! Who says there is not a gun culture in the PRC. This number is from one provence and must be the tip of the iceberg. On another thread on this forum a subject who says he is in China is asking questions on variour guns...
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Old November 25, 2011, 07:59 PM   #46
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Nothing wrong with the Tokarev design.
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Old November 26, 2011, 10:48 AM   #47
Silent Bob
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Quote:
Oh no! My 54-1 must be completely shot out! I better tell it to stop shooting such nice groups, it must not have heard about that.
Yeah, because its probably shot out. Just messing with you. Not bashing Toks at all, I kind of like them in an odd way. How about posting some pics of your groups with your Tok?
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Old November 26, 2011, 01:22 PM   #48
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Strong recoil? Really? From a TT-33 in 7.62x25? I always thought the TT-33 had almost no recoil. Shooting milsurp ammo is very pleasant in mine. It may not be the most refined pistol & lacking in many ways by contemporary standards but to say its recoil is harsh is laughable. Come to the range with me sometime & I'll let you try a nice Smith & Wesson 329PD. You will have a new standard for strong recoil after a cylinder full of 240s from it.
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Old November 26, 2011, 05:19 PM   #49
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It would be interesting to hear what the OP thinks in his opinion is a good design, and who designed it.
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Old November 27, 2011, 02:49 PM   #50
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I got one and I like it, Shot it and I like it even more.
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