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Old November 22, 2011, 07:49 PM   #51
Hunter Rose
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Missed the sarcasm.

But I've heard antis discuss making the training requirement too onerous for most people to attain. So feel free to claim I'm using a logical fallacy
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Old November 22, 2011, 07:55 PM   #52
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CCW class should not be training. It SHOULD however require you to demonstrate safe and effective use of a firearm. Any of the stuff like has been mentioned in this thread - can't operate the safety, can't load the weapon, negligent muzzle control, can't hit the target at 5 yards, etc - should rate an instant failure.
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Old November 22, 2011, 08:00 PM   #53
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Quote:
But I've heard antis discuss making the training requirement too onerous for most people to attain. So feel free to claim I'm using a logical fallacy
Your conclusion does not follow directly from the premises. You are still using a logically fallacy because you do not have strong enough causal link. Sorry but its logic 101. There is no causal inevitability. You have outlined a possible scenario but have proven nothing.

If we are going to argue a position we should do so with enough weight and accuracy to actually convince someone who does not share the same conclusions before the discussion starts.
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Old November 22, 2011, 08:20 PM   #54
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Quote:
Now... making a training requirement opens the door for antigun politicians to raise the bar so high that nobody can meet it. Defacto ban on CCW.
Quote:
You do realize I am stating that you are attempting to prove your point using a logical fallacy known as the slippery slope.
My understanding is that not all slippery slope arguments are fallacious.

Each step must be examined and one needs to recognize the great difference between "will cause and either "may cause," or "may encourage,". . . .

How far off base would I be to predict that if there were a pro-gun bill, someone would attempt to insert a rider that we would consider anti?

Anti-gun politicians are on record as advocating incremental encroachments, are they not?
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Old November 22, 2011, 08:24 PM   #55
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To the OP, I am adamantly against a mandatory 40 training requirement. It would prevent many law abiding and hardworking citizens the ability to obtain a concealed carry permit.

That said, I think MO's mandatory 8 hour training program which requires qualification with both a revolver and a semi-automatic pistol is reasonable.

I also think that not all instructors of the classes provide the same quality of education. Our instructor (also a certified NRA instructor) required us to put 20 rounds from each weapon into an 11 X 17 target at 7yds. During the firing section, he also required us to demonstrate a reload of each type of weapon and even required a "short load" of the revolver to demonstrate that we could properly index the short load. The instructor also taught and strictly enforced the NRA safe gun handling rules on the range.

If you really want to do something to improve the CC class, pass more stringent requirements to license the instructors and audit the classes more frequently to ensure that the instructors are following the curriculum.
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Old November 22, 2011, 08:26 PM   #56
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Quote:
My understanding is that not all slippery slope arguments are fallacious.

Each step must be examined and one needs to recognize the great difference between "will cause and either "may cause," or "may encourage,". . . .
You need to have a much stronger causal relationship than has been presented here to overcome the obvious fallacy. The conclusion does not derive directly from the premises but instead is only circumstantially supported. At best it is a weak argument instead of a complete fallacy.

Quote:
How far off base would I be to predict that if there were a pro-gun bill, someone would attempt to insert a rider that we would consider anti?

Anti-gun politicians are on record as advocating incremental encroachments, are they not?
Today 08:00 PM
I like it! Using a red herring to prove the slippery slope... Please we can do better than this can't we. If I am pro-gun and I can see the errors in your logic what will anyone who is on the fence see? We are not talking about pro gun bills or slipping in riders. Leading us away from the question at hand does not strengthen the slippery slope unless you already believe the conclusion to be true. That would be circular reasoning and you know what they say about circular reasoning.



Some anti-gun advocates are looking to use incremental approaches but all poodles are dogs not all dogs are poodles. Again there is not a strong enough causal relationship to validate the claim. Your argument lacks structure and logical substance.

Honestly we can do better than this.
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Last edited by WVsig; November 22, 2011 at 08:35 PM.
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Old November 22, 2011, 09:21 PM   #57
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Are you still surprised? I gather that you are against "constitutional carry.""
Never said I was surprised. I've said that there are a lot of people that don't know how to safely carry and/or handle a handgun.

Constitutional carry? It has the word Constitution in it so it must be good right?

Well, I'm against sharing a area with a person who doesn't know how to safely carry and/or handle their firearm.
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Old November 22, 2011, 09:49 PM   #58
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Why not use a little personal responsibility and punish those who screw up, rather than put in training that can be used as a tool to prevent gun ownership/carry (see current situation in Chicago, IIRC correctly, where training is required but you can't get it unless you can drive out of the jurisdiction as they don't allow it to be offered) or is a hurdle to those less well off financially.

Even 40 hours of training...seriously, do you think that makes up for a lifetime of naivity to guns? My wife has far, far more than 40 hours of training but even she is honest enough with herself to know that she should not be carrying as she could not trust herself to react correctly and safely in a high-pressure situation.
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Old November 22, 2011, 10:21 PM   #59
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Let me start with: what part of "shall not be infringed" do you not understand?

The fact is that we must currently allow "reasonable restrictions"... which is such a nebulous term that it may be twisted in any direction.

That should be offensive to anyone who understands the Constitution.
On the other hand, it is where we find ourselves, and we can only progress from here.

As far as state CHL/CCW laws go, we must comply with them as written. We should not seek to make them more restrictive.

When I received my A&P license almost 30 years ago, I was told that it was a "license to learn". A driver's license is the same thing...a starting point, and a responsibility.

A CHL/CCW is the same. It is up to the license holder to increase and enhance his/her knowledge and skill.

Do not put that power in the states' hands.
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Old November 22, 2011, 10:41 PM   #60
Discern
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WVsig Statement on NRA Basic Pistol Course NOT TRUE

NOT TRUE Quote of WVsig - "The NRA basic safety course requires no live firing to complete. You do not have to even hold a gun to get your certificate."

WVsig, how do you know the requirements for the NRA Basic Pistol Course? Was this course an actual NRA Basic Pistol Course or a non-NRA course taught by a NRA Instructor? If you know of any NRA Instructor issuing a NRA Basic Pistol Course certificate without the students actually firing a handgun in the manner set by the NRA, contact the NRA HQ.

WVsig, your above statement regarding the NRA Basic Pistol Course not requiring students to fire a handgun is absolutely false. Students of the NRA Basic Pistol Course must shoot either a rimfire or centerfire handgun (NO Airsoft, BB guns, pellet guns or air guns) and demonstrate they are safe in loading, firing, unloading and handling a handgun. The NRA is very specific on what needs to be covered in NRA courses in the classroom, on the range and how the shooting of the handgun is to take place for the NRA Basic Pistol Course. There is no required minimum number of shots to be fired, but the NRA guidelines for a NRA course must be followed. This requires several shots to be fired. Some NRA Instructors may have their students fire hundreds of rounds during the NRA Basic Pistol Course. All guidelines set by the NRA for a particular course regarding instruction and student proficiency must be met for a NRA certificate to be issued.
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Old November 22, 2011, 11:00 PM   #61
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Discern I stand corrected on the current requirements of the basic pistol course. I looked up my certificate and I took the NRA FIRST Steps Pistol Orientation class which also states it has a range component but at the time I took the course which was 10+ years ago many of the course offered locally did not require any range time and qualified you to obtain a permit. I specifically sought out one that had range time.

I am however not incorrect on the fact that VA does not require you to have any range time in order to get a CHP in VA.

http://www.vsp.state.va.us/Firearms_...dHandgunPermit

Completing any firearms training or safety course or class, including an electronic, video, or on-line course, conducted by a state-certified or National Rifle Association-certified firearms instructor;

I personally have never shot a pistol with live rounds online or via video... have you? My main point still stands that VA does not require any hands on training with a pistol in order to obtain a CHP.
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Old November 22, 2011, 11:04 PM   #62
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My personal take on this is that CCW training should focus on applicable laws and regulations, and some discussion of what does and what does not constitute reasonable grounds for use of deadly force in self-defense.

A thorough review of such topics takes up a full class, in my opinion. Adding basic weapons handling to the mix, while an admirable idea, could easily lead to overload.

Also, logical fallacy or no, a training requirement could easily be manipulated to make it difficult for the average person to obtain a permit, and I am not keen on opening windows of opportunity for the other side.

That said, I also think it foolish of anybody who plans to carry if they do not first get themselves up to speed on safe, basic weapons handling. After obtaining the permit, I think continued training is a good idea, too.

Frankly, if we want to add training requirements - and if I were boss, which I'm not - we could add mandatory training in unarmed self-defense, plus less-lethal self-defense, as prerequisites to training for any use of deadly force. I'd argue that such a plan would make sense, as it would weed out those who aren't serious about learning, and it would ensure that people who were carrying firearms would be aware of, and at least to some extent able to employ, methods short of using a firearm for those situations where a lesser degree of force might be warranted.

But if I actually tried to mandate such training, I suspect a lot of those who have posted here in favor of the training requirement would argue quite vehemently and bitterly about it.

So I have to ask, is the right to self-defense, and the right to bear arms, a right or a privilege? If it's a right, then the training requirement argument fails. If it's a privilege, then who gets to put the limits on what training requirement is reasonable and what is an infringement?

Edit: In thinking about this, my issue would be with a government training mandate. I have no problem at all if individual instructors want proof of a shooter's proficiency before accepting them as a CCW student. I might require the same...

Last edited by MLeake; November 22, 2011 at 11:10 PM.
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Old November 22, 2011, 11:12 PM   #63
Discern
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WVsig,

The following is from the NRA.

The National Rifle Association of America currently has no online firearm training
courses. All of our firearm training courses (Home Firearm Safety excluded) have a
shooting component on a range. Some NRA certified instructors have created online
firearm training programs, and have issued certificates to individuals that take their
courses, using the title NRA Certified Instructor. Under no circumstances may NRA’s
name or your NRA credentials be associated with any online firearms training
course. If NRA’s name or your NRA credentials are associated with a course, you
must, among other things, actually work with the students, face-to-face, to allow you to
evaluate whether they perform the safe operation of a firearm, and shoot with a
sufficient level of skill. This policy applies to any course which might result in issuing
any certificate that bears the title of NRA Certified Instructor, or if the course is
associated in any way whatsoever with a certification issued by the NRA.
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Old November 22, 2011, 11:17 PM   #64
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Bingo.
Our Texas CHL class is a 10-hour deal. Most of that time is spent focusing on Texas law with regard to carry and self-defense law...as it should be.

We also have a 50-round range qualification requirement about which I am ambivalent. Nothing wrong with being competent with your weapon of choice, and I strongly believe in training. I shoot weekly, but that is my choice.

Once again, I run up against that whole "shall not be infringed" thing. Your mileage may vary.
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Old November 22, 2011, 11:21 PM   #65
WVsig
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Read the VA statue.... Online and video based training qualifies and it does not have to be done by a NRA instructor. A state certified instructor or NRA instructor is needed but it does not need to be a course endorsed by the NRA. I know for a fact people today are obtaining permits in VA with training which did not require them to fire a handgun.

You have not posted anything to disputed the VA statute.
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-It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -Aristotle
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Last edited by WVsig; November 22, 2011 at 11:27 PM.
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Old November 22, 2011, 11:23 PM   #66
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Why a person, with the power of life and death in their hands will not take the responsibility to educate themselves with the tools at hand so they don't endanger themselves, loved ones or strangers is beyond any comprehension.

My thoughts are laws should be enacted that make the penalty so severe should a person due to negligence severely injured or cause the death of another. This is the only way some people will get it. I have seen all kinds of weirdoes at the range doing all kinds of stupid stuff and may God forbid that the screwed up and discharge towards my direction etc. I will consider it a serious threat and defend myself because I will not entertain this kind of stupidity.

It is a free country but doesn't freedom come with responsibilities?
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Old November 22, 2011, 11:26 PM   #67
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Well said Mleake one of the better posts in this thread!
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Old November 22, 2011, 11:29 PM   #68
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Doublea A, have you never heard of such existing, established crimes as:

Manslaughter;
Negligent homicide;
Aggravated battery;
Assault with a deadly weapon?

These can all be applied to the situations you describe, with the appropriate charge depending on the specifics. IE, there are already laws that address your concerns. How do you think the enactment of more laws would be a good thing?

Additionally, civil suits can put some serious pain on the inept and stupid.

Be careful what you wish for...

(Edit: as I read this, I realize that last pair of lines may have looked like a slam... not intended that way. The "inept and stupid" was in reference to the people Doublea A observed acting like morons with weapons, not to any poster.)

Last edited by MLeake; November 22, 2011 at 11:35 PM.
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Old November 22, 2011, 11:33 PM   #69
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WVSig, thanks... actually, I do train regularly in unarmed self-defense. I admit I have only minimal training in chemical sprays, cuffs, and flex-cuffs... but I practice quite a lot with both firearms (range, plus IDPA) and open-hands (aikido, jujutsu). I also hit the gym several times a week.

But while I highly recommend such practices, I would not wish to see a government mandate.

Regards,

M

PS Situational awareness and social skills are other things that can't be mandated, but that really should be developed, while we are at it...
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Old November 22, 2011, 11:33 PM   #70
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Old November 22, 2011, 11:38 PM   #71
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WVsig,

I never said anything regarding the requirements from VA regarding a concealed carry permit. What I posted is that you were totally incorrect regarding NRA courses. I posted from the NRA policies to make it clear to you and others what you stated regarding NRA courses in totally false. Don't state the requirements if you do not know them.
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Old November 22, 2011, 11:44 PM   #72
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Quote:
I never said anything regarding the requirements from VA regarding a concealed carry permit. What I posted is that you were totally incorrect regarding NRA courses. I posted from the NRA policies to make it clear to you and others what you stated regarding NRA courses in totally false. Don't state the requirements if you do not know them.
Which I already conceded I misspoke about but if you bothered to read what I posted the crux of my argument was that VA does not require any "training" on how to actually use a real handgun in order to obtain a permit.

Do you want me to say it again:

I stand corrected on the current requirements of the NRA basic pistol course. It has a range component to the course as does the NRA 1st step course in its current form!

I used the wrong example but have now corrected the error by offering up numerous other examples of hands off online video training that qualifies you for a permit in VA. Hopefully to the satisfaction of Discern. I can only hope he accepts my deepest apologizes and no longer feels the need to PM me his forum posts. LOL
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Old November 22, 2011, 11:52 PM   #73
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IMO, what is needed is for people in general to be taught by knowledgeable shooters or instructors on how to safely shoot and handle firearms at an early but appropriate age. I know several people who attended rural/country schools where firearm safety and marksmanship were taught at school. Unfortunately, many schools today no longer have a marksmanship or rilfe team yet alone teach firearm safety. The NRA has the the Eddie Eagle Safety Program, but how many schools take advantage of this free program? Some schools that do have a marksmanship or rifle team, will not even allow a student on the school's marksmanship team to have a picture of them in their school marksmanship uniform and rifle in the school yearbook.

If we start accepting restrictions to our constitutional rights, we are in danger to lose our constitutional rights. The current American Rifleman has a good article on what happened in the UK regarding firearm ownership. IMO, what is needed is for people to be taught at an early age how to think, be responsible and a good citizen. Many people today have never been taught common sense or how to use reason, how to be responsible or to be a good citizen. If the building blocks are not there how can we expect any type of order?

Edit: Above post is good example
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Old November 23, 2011, 12:06 AM   #74
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I'm sure we all have range stories.

The last time I was at the range the guy in the booth next to me was having trouble hitting a man-sized silhoutte at 10 feet. Yes - ten feet.

His shooting was so bad it was distracting me. It was like passing a car crash... I didn't want to look but I had to look. I'd hear his gun go off and then I had to see where it hit the target. He had 14" shot groups, and sometimes his gun would go off and no hole would appear in his target.

His gun jammed and he had no idea how to clear it so he had to flag down the range officer.

Ya, I think, "should this guy really have a gun?"

I also bemoan the fact that unless someone is convicted of felony - they retain the right to carry a gun even when they are stupid. I think of that jackass who carrying and was opening the door to a 7-Eleven in Atlanta, and started an argument with someone who didn't say thank you to him, and was badgering the guy - even following him out of the store berating him, and the guy shot him.

I'm not saying it was right for the shooter to shoot that guy, but the guy was a jackass and if I were King I'd take his CCW away from him. Id say "you lack common sense, I'm not even going to duscuss it with you because talking to you is like talking to a brick wall - you're a stupid jackass and you can't be trusted to carry a weapon."

But we had a king, and we decided we didn't want a king, and we made this thing - the constitution, so we have to live with it.

It gives people rights in a lot of different areas, and sometimes people use those rights to be stupid.
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Old November 23, 2011, 12:55 AM   #75
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To MLeake

I have heard of the above mention laws but you and I know that sometimes people are not prosecuted because they can afford a high profile attorney or their family is in the position of influence in society. In the case that they are prosecuted they cannot bring back the innocent life that they have destroyed. So it is lose-lose situation for all the parties involved.

The motivation for my previous comment is that there are some people in society that only acts because the consequences of inaction will be of great detriment to them. Not everybody is proactive, diligent and responsible in this case, the handling of firearms safely. These kind of people endangers all of us who take these rights seriously because the rights did not come cheaply.

I agree with your comment "That said, I also think it foolish of anybody who plans to carry if they do not first get themselves up to speed on safe, basic weapons handling. After obtaining the permit, I think continued training is a good idea, too."

So I was suggesting a good judgment on behalf of firearm enthusiast but if somebody says that it is their freedom not to become knowledgeable, they are right, so do I have the reservation not to help these kind of people should the need arise. I hope our annual membership fee to the NRA is not being used to support this kind of idiocy.
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