The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old November 27, 2011, 06:31 AM   #1
roboman
Junior Member
 
Join Date: November 26, 2011
Posts: 3
Customer pulls out gun, things go better then expected.

Sometimes its better to think and watch then react
I was hanging out at a local thrift store with the cashier who is a fellow gun nut. We were having a conversation about the different weaponry of WWII when suddenly a very old 80 something year old comes to the counter and pulls out what appears to be a Walther P38 from his holster that is attached to his belt. It was covered by a jacket. For a second I think its a replica or something , he then unloads it and starts talking about it.

The funny thing is there are about a dozen customers in the store and one even waiting on line that react like everything is normal , it was very strange, as if we live in the wild west or something. It was just so bizarre, I thought for sure someone would freak out.

I had my .380 on me but I did not even touch it becuase
  • First I thought it was fake
  • Then I was just startled/shocked
  • By that time the weapon was already unloaded
  • The gun was never pointed at me , the barrel was pointed to the floor

This just shows you have to expect the unexpected, even a 80 something year old pulling out a gun. The whole thing could have been worse, thankfully this was more like a wake up call.

This occurred in South Florida
roboman is offline  
Old November 27, 2011, 10:16 AM   #2
skoro
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 30, 2008
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,690
Quote:
This just shows you have to expect the unexpected, even a 80 something year old pulling out a gun
Those 80 year old guys are mostly WWII vets who know their way around weapons.
skoro is offline  
Old November 27, 2011, 11:14 AM   #3
BerettaBuckeye
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 22, 2006
Location: In The Heart Of The Buckeye Nation
Posts: 558
That's just plain stupid and dangerous and age is no excuse.
__________________
(\__/) "I would rather be your friend, but if you are
(='.'=) not interested in that, I am prepared to be
(")_(") a capable and efficient enemy."
- Jeff Cooper
BerettaBuckeye is offline  
Old November 27, 2011, 11:22 AM   #4
Glenn E. Meyer
Staff
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 15,640
I don't think this was a good thing. I've seen folks have to wrestle away a rifle from an old guy at the range who wouldn't stop shooting during a cease fire to replace targets. Claimed he knew how to shoot.
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc.
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...05_Feature.htm
Being an Academic Shooter
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...11_Feature.htm
Being an Active Shooter
Glenn E. Meyer is offline  
Old November 27, 2011, 11:25 AM   #5
nate45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 15, 2007
Location: Illinois
Posts: 3,746
So what tactic are we supposed to be discussing?

Not to draw on old guys who have done nothing threatening?
__________________
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms."- Thomas Jefferson
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
(>_<)
nate45 is offline  
Old November 27, 2011, 11:35 AM   #6
briandg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 4, 2010
Posts: 1,701
I'm most definitely happy that you didn't draw on an 80 year old man who simply took a pistol out of a holster.

Simply put, I see absolutely no reason in what you have told here to justify it. I see no indication whatsoever of intent to harm, and I see no possible reason for you to have felt threatened. your remarks are that you never know, even 80 year old men sometimes barge into conversations and show their guns to people, and we need to remember that, so we won't be surprised.

you're telling us that the guy just walked up to you, drew his gun, and showed it to you. Not a word exchanged. are you sure that you didn't omit something? This story leaves me a little less than confident of a lot of things.
briandg is offline  
Old November 27, 2011, 11:50 AM   #7
jhenry
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 27, 2006
Location: Ozarks
Posts: 1,813
About the very youngest WWII vets are 84+ years old. Most living WWII vets are pushing 90 or better. We should thank them in person whenever we can for what they did for the world.

That bit aside, what the gentleman did in pulling a loaded firearm in a public place without a legitimate reason to do so, without an invitation to do so, and then to manipulate the firearm by unloading it, was foolish and irresponsible.

Being a WWII vet, does not in any way make a person a competent gun owner, or even a safe one or a good shot. No more than being a vet from any other conflict does. Many draftees had never been exposed to guns except for the ones they were issued and never viewed them the way we do here. My own father was a WWII and Korea vet who could tell you all the weapons he trained on just like he could tell you where he traveled. They were just loud tools. When I handed him a 1911 a few years ago (He has since passed), my dad remembered the bullets went in the grip somehow, that's about it. He had zero interest in firearms. On the other hand he COULD vividly tell you what not to do when messing with an M1 rifle. He would then proceed to tell all about getting M1 thumb. A vivid memory apparently.
__________________
"A Liberal is someone who doesn't care what you do, as long as it's mandatory". - Charles Krauthammer
jhenry is offline  
Old November 27, 2011, 01:03 PM   #8
Glenn E. Meyer
Staff
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 15,640
Going around topless and carrying are different from drawing out the gun in a public place.

To the tactical issue - the best bet is to flee or talk calmly to the individual.

Florida is a fun old person place. I've seen an old guy totally flip out in the Walgreens because he had to stand in line to get a birthday card. Threw it on the ground and stomped on it. Glad he wasn't carrying.

I also saw a gentleman drop stone cold dead at the ATM. Stream of urine crossed the parking lot. Freaked me out, went inside to tell them to call 91. Happens all the time, they said.

On the other hand, two old men - one with a NAA 22 mag and the other with a 22 mag derringer - shot a crook holding up a restaurant with a shotgun,once.
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc.
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...05_Feature.htm
Being an Academic Shooter
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...11_Feature.htm
Being an Active Shooter
Glenn E. Meyer is offline  
Old November 27, 2011, 01:36 PM   #9
youngunz4life
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2010
Location: United States of America
Posts: 1,877
I don't have a problem with it, and the thing is obviously nobody else did either if you or no other customer said anything to him. He never held it in a threatening manner, and he probably hasn't any weapon since the War. I wouldn't do it myself, but I guess he knew he could get away with it. Is there a policy or sign saying he can't bring in a loaded gun? Maybe it was his carry piece.
__________________
"Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead!" -Admiral Farragut @ Battle of Mobile Bay 05AUG1864
youngunz4life is offline  
Old November 27, 2011, 02:17 PM   #10
roboman
Junior Member
 
Join Date: November 26, 2011
Posts: 3
Yes he said something before he removed his gun but honestly I cant really remember because I intently listing to my friend, the real question is what was the right thing to do? If he meant harm he had the drop on me and I was toast.
roboman is offline  
Old November 27, 2011, 02:26 PM   #11
jhenry
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 27, 2006
Location: Ozarks
Posts: 1,813
The simple fact that he did what he did tells me he either has no business carrying a firearm, or may be slipping mentally. Stating that the folks around him had no problem with it is simplistic in the extreme. Other than the OP, and his friend, we have no idea if the folks in line even knew what happened. Just because they had no reaction does not mean they were switched on enough to comprehend what the guy was fiddling with at the counter.

Does anyone here really consider what the older man did to be acceptable gun handling? Anyone?
__________________
"A Liberal is someone who doesn't care what you do, as long as it's mandatory". - Charles Krauthammer
jhenry is offline  
Old November 27, 2011, 02:31 PM   #12
nate45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 15, 2007
Location: Illinois
Posts: 3,746
Old guys are eccentric.

Carrying a P-38 for CCW is eccentric, I don't care what anyone says.

Everyone over 75 has some degree of dementia.

He is probably lonely and/or wanted to talk about/show off his P-38.

A younger person probably wouldn't have done it or would have clued you and your buddy in better before doing it.

At least (besides drawing it unannounced in the first place) he handled it relatively safely.

You're right he could have started shooting, but then again anyone could.
__________________
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms."- Thomas Jefferson
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
(>_<)
nate45 is offline  
Old November 27, 2011, 02:57 PM   #13
Lost Sheep
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 24, 2009
Location: Anchorage Alaska
Posts: 2,986
Gun handling? OK Public etiquette? Not so much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jhenry
Does anyone here really consider what the older man did to be acceptable gun handling? Anyone?
Gun handling? OK. Public etiquette? Not so much.

He kept it pointed at the floor and (apparantly) cleared it properly. Whether he did so in a socially conscious manner is open to question. Obviously, very much so in the OP's mind. Not to mention the safety issue. In some places drawing a weapon can get you shot by a less-than prudent (or intelligent) armed person.

I have not thought very much about the (non-shooting) circumstances that would prompt me to draw my carry piece. I always considered, unless requested by an authority (Law officer or some such), I would never do it. But if a discussion were to warrant it, I suppose I might consider it.

Perhaps I would if certain conditions held. A clearing barrel was available. The property owner/manager were in agreement and all present were aware (which should be obvious if I were standing in front of a clearing barrel).

Otherwise, I would "keep it in my pants", so to speak. Concealed is concealed and holstered is supposed to be (my personal feeling).

Having said that, in a firearms-friendly venue (the old American West for example) the social norms permitted a more casual attitude. (However, I can't imagine your average thrift store -as in the O.P. to be a current-day example.)

Lost Sheep
Lost Sheep is offline  
Old November 27, 2011, 03:15 PM   #14
secret_agent_man
Junior member
 
Join Date: March 25, 2011
Posts: 463
What the OP doesn't want to admit is, the old guy had them all if he wanted.
secret_agent_man is offline  
Old November 27, 2011, 03:15 PM   #15
Grant D
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 14, 2011
Location: Brazos County, Texas
Posts: 775
Ok, I'll bite. A 1911 is ok for CCW but not a P-38?
And yes a bad situation indeed,what if a cop walked through the door!
Grant D is offline  
Old November 27, 2011, 03:31 PM   #16
Stevie-Ray
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 22, 2007
Location: The shores of Lake Huron
Posts: 4,506
Quote:
Everyone over 75 has some degree of dementia.
Upon what do you base that?

http://alzheimers.about.com/od/resea...e_dementia.htm
__________________
Stevie-Ray
Join the NRA/ILA
I am the weapon; my gun is a tool. It's regrettable that with some people those descriptors are reversed.
Stevie-Ray is offline  
Old November 27, 2011, 03:46 PM   #17
nate45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 15, 2007
Location: Illinois
Posts: 3,746
Quote:
Originally Posted by excerpt from article Stevie-Ray lined too
dementia is not an inevitable consequence of age nor does it only affect the elderly.
I'm demented?
__________________
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms."- Thomas Jefferson
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
(>_<)
nate45 is offline  
Old November 27, 2011, 04:06 PM   #18
orionengnr
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 9, 2004
Posts: 4,981
Quote:
Everyone over 75 has some degree of dementia.
Thank you, Dr. Nate. I would like to see your credentials and any of your published and peer-reviewed documents.

Absent that, your entirely arbitrary and subjective opinion is exactly that.
orionengnr is offline  
Old November 27, 2011, 04:13 PM   #19
Glenn E. Meyer
Staff
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 15,640
Discussing dementia is off topic.

Let's get real. We like guns. We carry them. Drawing one in an inappropriate place is wrong. The action was irrational, even if we like guns.

If he had taken off his pants - would you be so forgiving?
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc.
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...05_Feature.htm
Being an Academic Shooter
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...11_Feature.htm
Being an Active Shooter
Glenn E. Meyer is offline  
Old November 27, 2011, 04:22 PM   #20
youngunz4life
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2010
Location: United States of America
Posts: 1,877
roboman

1st off, thank you for this thread. I really needed some funny posts today.

Secondly, you have to at least give him the benefit of the doubt somewhat on this(your post right after my only other post):

Quote:
Yes he said something before he removed his gun but honestly I cant really remember because I intently listing to my friend....
You don't know what he said.
__________________
"Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead!" -Admiral Farragut @ Battle of Mobile Bay 05AUG1864
youngunz4life is offline  
Old November 27, 2011, 04:28 PM   #21
Edward429451
Junior member
 
Join Date: November 12, 2000
Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado
Posts: 9,494
He heard you guys talking about guns and wanted to feel a little camaraderie with you so pulled his out. Good thing some of you guys weren't in line behind him or we'd be discussing how many followup shots were needed to put the old guy in his place.
Edward429451 is offline  
Old November 27, 2011, 04:31 PM   #22
Glenn E. Meyer
Staff
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 15,640
Good thing you weren't talking about - guess what. If you get my drift.

Let's cut to the chase - it was not a good thing.

Is this going anywhere else?
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc.
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...05_Feature.htm
Being an Academic Shooter
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...11_Feature.htm
Being an Active Shooter
Glenn E. Meyer is offline  
Old November 27, 2011, 04:42 PM   #23
BillCA
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 28, 2004
Location: Silicon Valley, Ca
Posts: 7,087
Quote:
Originally Posted by nate45
Old guys are eccentric.
Define "old" - over what age?
I know some pretty eccentric 35 year olds too.

Quote:
Carrying a P-38 for CCW is eccentric, I don't care what anyone says.
A P-38 is eccentric? Unusual perhaps, but not eccentric. I've done it for grins. It's not an easy gun to conceal. But it's no larger than a Beretta 92FS, firing system works about the same.

Quote:
Everyone over 75 has some degree of dementia.
You have proof? Mom is 89 and can remember every item she wants on her shopping list from week to week. Another relative is 77 and still enjoys repairing lawn mowers, washer, dryers and more. What IS true, that I've noted is that they are more easily surprised and their reaction times are slower due to age.

Quote:
He is probably lonely and/or wanted to talk about/show off his P-38.
As opposed to a lonely younger man who wants to show off his Sig P226?

Quote:
A younger person probably wouldn't have done it or would have clued you and your buddy in better before doing it.
There's no basis in fact for this statement.
What people will or won't do is a crap shoot.

Was he wrong? Probably. He certainly lacked courtesy to the others present. He was probably listening and simply happy to hear others casually discussing something he knew about.
__________________
BillCA in CA (Unfortunately)
BillCA is offline  
Old November 27, 2011, 04:51 PM   #24
nate45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 15, 2007
Location: Illinois
Posts: 3,746
So you guys are saying my post was filled with common misconceptions?

And that the elderly gentleman might have been just as normal and competent as anyone else?
__________________
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms."- Thomas Jefferson
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
(>_<)
nate45 is offline  
Old November 27, 2011, 05:05 PM   #25
Edward429451
Junior member
 
Join Date: November 12, 2000
Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado
Posts: 9,494
No, it was not a good thing in this day and age. I see that quite a few of you guys are too harsh and critically paranoid almost. Not everyone is a bad guy and I think perhaps some look too hard for the bad guy.

May I suggest that people need to chill out and take a lesson from the bankers. They don't teach the tellers how to spot counterfeit money. They teach the tellers how to spot good money, understand?

Learn about body language and most of the spookies will go away for you. I'd bet money that the old guys was non-threatening in his actions and the OP just didn't know what to look for and got paranoid.
Edward429451 is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:07 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.12917 seconds with 9 queries