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Old November 30, 2011, 06:54 PM   #26
Hardy
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Yall are right--I can't limit myself that is why I retail ballestol and Tenn Valley along w/ conversion cylinders and parts.ETC. Its too expensive of a niche biz to order and carry everthing!

But to give my shopkeeper due respect, he takes newbees to public range and the ones that continue w bp he gives me feedback. So far 37 is what they like.

Until I get my licensce I can carry Pioneer/ Trip 7 and Pyrodex. What sub do yopu like?

WBH
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Old November 30, 2011, 08:07 PM   #27
mykeal
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deleted - you already answered my question.

I don't use any of the subs as long as I have Goex. So far, I have used Pyrodex and Triple Seven and keep a small supply of both. If I HAD to buy a sub, it would be Pyrodex because it's cheaper.
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Old December 1, 2011, 06:48 PM   #28
Andy Griffith
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I just want a couple of T7 bottles so it looks like I spend a lot of money.
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Old December 5, 2011, 06:46 PM   #29
Hardy
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Andy-- They don't cost that much more. Ok I got one endorsement of pyrodex and has been checked. To make an appraisal from yall, I need 3 to determine market. I like Britt coffee from Costa Rica but it costs more. 1 lb of powder goesssss a long way! The few "new" c/b buyers that came to me like trip 7 because of its easy clean up and power. I am ordering pyrodex and trip7 but no longer Pioneer. NowI guess someone will say Pioneer is better!?

I love ya'll

WBH
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Old December 5, 2011, 08:04 PM   #30
ClemBert
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I believe Pioneer, Jim Shockey's Gold, et al are very hygroscopic. So, those fellas that don't use it up fast enough or don't store it properly after use are gonna end up with a big hard crud ball in the can. Maybe someone with real experience will chime in.
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Old December 5, 2011, 08:24 PM   #31
Hardy
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Thanks Clembert. I have said I have never touched trip 7 personally but I do know that J Shockey and Pioneer do clump up and Pyrodex didn't. Glad to know that trip 7 has that problem. Uh--tough biz but Ima gonna learn something eveyday---hopefully anyway
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Old December 5, 2011, 09:33 PM   #32
Hardy
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Hygroscopic refers to absorbing moisture from air so I presume Clembert is referring to certain lubricants that are in these powders that contribute to clumping. That is a true. Even though pyrodex contains some graphite- I never saw it get moist in dry environment -but by golly I saw J shockey gold do. Ok- What about trip 7
WBH
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Old December 6, 2011, 06:49 AM   #33
bejay
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I like pyrodex myself while triple7 is ok it seems to work best in modern inlines with a hot ignition, if you start selling black powder im sure alot would just as soon use it over one of the substitutes.
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Old December 6, 2011, 10:51 AM   #34
ClemBert
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardy
Hygroscopic refers to absorbing moisture from air so I presume ClemBert is referring to certain lubricants that are in these powders that contribute to clumping.
I wasn't referring to lubricants or ingredients in the powder. Rather, I was just pointing out that others have complained about both Pioneer and Jim Shockey's Gold clumping up. Specifically, the owner of the local muzzle loading retail store in my area who specializes in black powder firearms indicated that he had these powders on his shelves that clumped up. I have no idea how that happened as they were unopened but very old stock. He said others have complained about open cans that didn't get used up in a timely fashion. Further, it is my understanding from him and various internet sites that Pioneer and Jim Shockey's Gold is basically one and the same powder but in different packaging.

Lastly, it is my understanding that graphite in most black powders (that's the "g" as in FFFg) is for purposes of reducing ignition by static electricity. This explanation versus that it's there as a lubricant. You can buy BP without graphite but it isn't as common. Reenactors who go through vast amounts of BP are known to use it as it is less expensive than BP with graphite. Imagine the amount of BP used to fire a cannon by a reenactor.

Anyhow, that is my understanding. If my info is in error then someone slap me on the head.
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Old December 11, 2011, 04:49 PM   #35
Hardy
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Clembert, I need to be slapped on the head! But, do you know anything about Goex subs. I swear, getting a small explosive license is easy for me since I don't have any RECORD etc--but the ramifications of having one verses the return on investment and all red tape is a head rubbing- fretting decision. especially a small guy like me.

Is the Goex subs any good? I talked today from a guy from Missippi that owns 2 thousand acres and sometimes hunt w/ inline 209 Thompsons. He told me he and hid group don't use real BP anymore but Pyrodex and BH209.

Only five people have come in store in last 18 months wanting real BP. There are licence fees/ paperwork/ vault-landlord's insurance etc. And -of course there are experienced shooters that already have a line on it. You know, just ordering subs and caps -there is very little profit because hazard fees are involved with theset too! That is why I tried to find hard to get items for folks that can't order from Cabela and too-Cabela doesn't have. That is why I had 3rd gen colts in display. Now--I can't find them anymore at profit selling
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Old December 11, 2011, 05:00 PM   #36
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I like Pyrodex. It's the closest chemically to real black and cleanup is a breeze plus it costs 15.00 bucks less per pound than 777.
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Old December 11, 2011, 06:43 PM   #37
ClemBert
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardy
Is the Goex subs any good? I talked today from a guy from Missippi that owns 2 thousand acres and sometimes hunt w/ inline 209 Thompsons. He told me he and hid group don't use real BP anymore but Pyrodex and BH209.

Only five people have come in store in last 18 months wanting real BP. There are licence fees/ paperwork/ vault-landlord's insurance etc. And -of course there are experienced shooters that already have a line on it.
I assume when you ask about "Goex" substitutes you are asking about BP substitutes...No? Or are you asking about other brands of BP?

The best way to answer the question regarding desirability of BP versus 777 versus Pyrodex is to ask questions of YOUR customers. We all have different requirements and as I'm not familiar with what the requirements of your customers may be it is hard to answer. I can tell you what I would do...

When a customer walked in and asked for Pyrodex I would let them know I have it for sale. However, I would follow up and say "I'm surprised you didn't ask for real black powder...it there a specific reason why you prefer Pyrodex"?

Find out what it is they like about Pyrodex. Some folks might say "I didn't know you can still get real black powder". Some folks might say "I heard real BP is really corrosive". Some folks might say "because I don't like the smell of real BP". Some folks might say "it's just too expensive to buy". FIND OUT THE REASON. Some of what they believe might be true and some it might just be incorrect.

Hardy, if I lived near you I'd show up one day after you got your BP license/insurance or whatever you need with a BATF approved BP box loaded with 25 pounds of real BP and say "Hardy, this is my personal stash of BP. Feel free to sell any amount of my stash. Just reimburse me for what I paid for the powder...keep the profit. When I show up for a pound or two of my powder please give me the key so I can get to some of my powder".

I'm not trying to sell you on the idea of carrying black powder. Rather, I think this is a unique niche you can fill because most individual aren't going to buy power 25lbs at a time and therefore can not get it at a reasonable price to make it work. I can get real BP from my local cap-n-ball firearms dealer. He has Pyrodex and 777 too. However, I have no compelling reason to go buy Pyrodex or 777 from him when I can make a shorter drive to Bass Pro or Gander Mountain and get if for the same price if not cheaper. BUT...he has real BP whereas Bass Pro and Gander Mountain do not. There is one part of the equation where niche and uniqueness come into play.
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Old December 13, 2011, 07:28 PM   #38
Hardy
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I have been told that Goex is now offering substitute. Thatr was the question.

WBH
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Old December 13, 2011, 08:29 PM   #39
Hardy
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thanks Clem. I guess I am going to figure out at the end of this year if I want to consider continuing. The biggest problem is that only a few "Niche" want this. Also, got Cabela to deal with. I guess, what has kept the store alive was the fact that I can buy from Ellit Bros/ Taylor etc at wholesale but I had no idea at the time that Cabela offered so much so cheap. I was fortunate to buy Rems from them and conversion cylinders from others. I always waited for their gun prices to drop before ordering. You do know they go up and down. Nothin against Cabela- but I can't retail C/B guns when you can order for $140 +/-. I bought some brassers at 129 and sold them at 160 and was able to make up by selling supplies. I just don't know if Real BP is a strong enough demand to offset all the problems. But still working on this. Think about this--You have overehead and lookieloos. Too many lookieloos And again, If you guys (YALL) fuss about a few dollars difference over a pound of powder that last more than a fortnight. How can I sell anything. I do have a bunch of CCI #10's I'll give yu fur less. And I do have Rem #11's you can come get for less than $7.00 per tin.
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Old December 13, 2011, 11:39 PM   #40
arcticap
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardy
Is the Goex subs any good?
There were 2 Goex substitute powders.
The first was Goex Clear Shot which was a unique fructose based powder that Goex produced themselves. It had mixed results and was discontinued about 8 or 9 years ago. I think that there were quality control issues with it, but perhaps only during its early production.
After that Goex basically just relabeled American Pioneer Powder which was named Goex Pinnacle and which was sold in a plastic container.
Some folks say that Pinnacle is their favorite substitute but only the FFFG seemed to have much of any popularity.
However Pinnacle was also discontinued about 2-3 years ago.
And now if any leftover Goex Pinnacle powder can be found for sale it is usually only the FFG or pellets on clearance.

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