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Old November 21, 2011, 10:21 AM   #26
BRE346
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Trivia tidbit

A unintentional discharge where I'm staying put a 9mm HP round into the inner side of an outer wall. It is still in there for there is not a single crack in the outer brick wall.
Such a discharge at my house would probably stop a 100 meters down the block.
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Old November 21, 2011, 10:42 AM   #27
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As always, there are a million variables when you start talking about "what's the best blahblahblah to use for blahblahblah?"

There's some good information here. I've been told repeatedly by retired cop/detectives that the best shot size is #4 buck, from an 18" barrel. It makes about a 2-foot pattern at 15-20 feet, with 25-27 pellets (#00 only has 7-9). It penetrates enough to stop anybody. I can't imagine an assailant pressing an attack after getting a spread of #4 buck in the neck/face area.

But again, the variables come in. If you live in an apartment, with typical thin sheetrock walls, even a #4 can penetrate well into the next unit. For this reason, some LEOs recommend using plain #6 or even #7 1/2 birdshot. They may have a point. I would hate to be on the receiving end of 250-300 #6's.
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Old November 21, 2011, 03:48 PM   #28
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For what it's worth I think the best HD weapon, albeit illegal, is a sawed off double barrel with 00 buck. Just about guaranteed to hit what your pointing at.
This is a rather nonsensical answer and just plain wrong. We have patterned 10" shotguns (no choke) and their patterning isn't significantly different that when firing the same loads out of 18" barrel shotguns (no choke). The only real difference is that the shorter barrel shotgun ends up with a lot more muzzle flash a couple hundred fps of reduced velocity. The spread of buckshot still usually patterned at about 1" per yard traveled.

The only real differnce we noted that day was that the short barrel shotgun was more prone to producing fliers, which is a liability, but wasn't a consistent problem.

As for hitting what you are aiming at, well pretty much all guns do this. They fire rounds where they are pointed, at least at close ranges where drop isn't an issue.

Sawed off shotguns are not illegal with the proper tax stamp. Also, people still manage to miss with them.
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Old November 21, 2011, 08:24 PM   #29
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12ga 3" 00 buck. one in the chest and its game over right there
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Old November 21, 2011, 10:33 PM   #30
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What are the odds of hitting someone on the other side of a wall?

I would examine all the cases where that has happened where a home owner has accidentally shot someone (either a neighbor or occupant in their home) by shooting through a wall and injured or killed someone unintentionally while defending their home/ life.

Since I don't know of any such cases I would say that the odds are extraordinarily low, especially relative to the number of in home firearm defensive uses. Feel free to post any such cases you know of however.

Mathematically the odds of shooting in a random direction and hitting a person after going through walls are so low as to be almost daunting. The odds really drop after traveling 10 meters (due to the huge rapidly expanding area) unless you live in an apartment building. Of course if you live in an apartment building it should have firewalls that will be highly bullet resistant.

So I would say picking your HD/ SD ammo based upon the propensity to not penetrate walls is not a useful metric.
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Old November 21, 2011, 11:00 PM   #31
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I'm sorry I couldn't read this entire thread - I'm reading War & Peace at the moment, so if this has already been covered just disregard:

Quote:
For the shotgun advocates, the fact that 00 or #1 Buck only penetrated 6-8 sheets is proof positive that a good pump-action will devastate the bad guy without hitting their loved ones in the next room.
Huh?

Last time I checked rooms are separated by 2 sheets of drywall.

Not sure where the logic is here.
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Old November 21, 2011, 11:07 PM   #32
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Firearms Tactical Institute report recomends #1 Buck

Quote:
For personal defense and law enforcement applications, the International Wound Ballistics Association advocates number 1 buckshot as being superior to all other buckshot sizes.
Quote:
Number 1 buck is the smallest diameter shot that reliably and consistently penetrates more than 12 inches of standard ordnance gelatin when fired at typical shotgun engagement distances.
Quote:
A standard 2 ¾-inch 12 gauge shotshell contains 16 pellets of #1 buck. The total combined cross sectional area of the 16 pellets is 1.13 square inches. Compared to the total combined cross sectional area of the nine pellets in a standard #00 (double-aught) buck shotshell (0.77 square inches), the # 1 buck shotshell has the capacity to produce over 30 percent more potentially effective wound trauma. In all shotshell loads, number 1 buckshot produces more potentially effective wound trauma than either #00 or #000 buck. In addition, number 1 buck is less likely to over-penetrate and exit an attacker's body.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs10.htm




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Old November 21, 2011, 11:29 PM   #33
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Someone mentioned the sawed-off shotgun. But if you look on YouTube you can see a Serbu being test fired at 5 yards

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uovL9I2iQmM

The birdshot patterened out to 10" but I wouldn't think it would lethal. Beside the older Winchester, the Buckshot spread less than you'd expect at 15 yards with one of the groups being about 6 inches or so.


Just to throw something else in the mix - you get different results if you fire shot through a rifled shotgun barrel.

Normally a shot pattern for normal shells (not FliteControl type cups) opens up 1" per yard from the muzzle. So for typical HD distance - yes you're going to have to aim because you're going to be creating 3"-4" holes.

However... with a rifled barrel and a load like Wolf - which is known for opening up pretty early you can get some pretty large shot patterns.

I calculated that the Wolf through rifled barrel spreads 3.6 times the "normal" rate.

Normal shot through a smoothbore would give roughly a 5" pattern at 5 yards. The Wolf through rifled opens up to 18"

So firing Wolf at 6 feet should create a 7.2" pattern, 10.8" pattern at 9 feet.

That's pretty darn close to the so called myth that you don't have to aim.

Granted the pattern takes on a ring shape, and if you don't hit COM, every pellet that misses keeps on going...

Buckshot through a rifled barrel:

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot43.htm

As with all shotguns you have to pattern every load for yourself. In the Serbu video, the older Winchester #00 Buck didn't pattern well at all, or even seem to center close to POA from the Serbu.
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Old November 22, 2011, 12:02 AM   #34
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All,

Quote:
raimius

Now, there are a lot of variables that the site cannot account for. What if you hit a stud? What will the book case, lamp, couch, etc do? We simply don't know.
Agreed. Definitely over-thinking this -- but it's in my nature.

Quote:
Double Naught Spy

Sorry, but this conclusion is bogus given that you assume the rifle round to be frangible ammo. If you used frangible pistol ammo, the pistol round very well could be safer.
Good point -- however, I was going with three rounds that the Box O' Truth used, and I was trying to level the playing field by using the "best" home-defense round of each type of home-defense weapon (shotgun, pistol and rifle). To my knowledge, most on TFL advocate against using frangible pistol rounds (though the jury is out on frangible rifle rounds).

Quote:
Bartholomew Roberts

I'm not sure what your point is; but the chances of a 5.56mm round travelling 100m AFTER it has fragmented are pretty much zero.
Ah, good point. Yes, the original intent of the post was simply to discuss ranges (10, 25 and 100 meters) as factors in the discussion about the "best" home-defense round. After reading the story about the kids who (accidentally) shot their neighbors at the local high school football game (I think it was over a kilometer away), and after witnessing the damage that rifle rounds can do to steel targets (as opposed to pistol rounds), I wanted to mix it up and challenge the conventional wisdom which states that pistol rounds are superior to rifle rounds for home-defense. I hoped to demonstrate/suggest that at a certain rangers, and in certain situations, an errant rifle round can pose a greater danger to innocents in the next room/home than an errant pistol round.

Quote:
Bartholomew Roberts

Well, although not a revelation, this part is certain true.
Haha, yes. The more time I've spent on TFL, the more I've begun to learn/realize that all these debates/arguments can be rather pointless. Given that there are so many variables and factors at play, there's never really one "perfect" or "right" answer -- even though as Type A personalities, we always seek 'em.

And yet I just added fuel to the fire...!

Quote:
MTT TL

Mathematically the odds of shooting in a random direction and hitting a person after going through walls are so low as to be almost daunting. The odds really drop after traveling 10 meters (due to the huge rapidly expanding area) unless you live in an apartment building. Of course if you live in an apartment building it should have firewalls that will be highly bullet resistant.
Point taken -- but a lot of our discussions on this forum concern this or that hypothetical situation that are highly unlikely to begin with. I mean, just how likely are you to ever need a firearm? And if you need one, actually fire it in anger? And if you fire it, actually hit (which is the only time that caliber matters)? As I stated in a previous thread, just 0.03% of all Americans fired (and hit) an attacker in 2009. The average TFL member is FAR more likely to get into a car accident tonight than get into a firefight, yet fails to take highly stringent/annoying (removing loose objects in the car, staying below the maximum illumination distance of headlights, etc) or sometimes even "normal" safeguards (seatbelts, staying below the speed limit, refraining from using a cell phone, etc). Yet we talk about tactics ad nauseum.

There seems to be no shortage of anecdotes/scary stories of bullets traveling in unintended directions...I figure for the same reason I carry a firearm (never know when the odds will catch up with you), it would be helpful to have a discussion about the pros/cons of various home-defense rounds, especially since the odds -- while small -- will eventually catch-up to someone, somewhere.

I mean, even the lowly 9x19mm FMJ -- as MikeNice81 wrote,

Quote:
I've seen the actual police report of a 124gr 9mm fmj that went through a windshield, the driver seat head rest, the back window, and travelled over 80 feet before going through the exterior wall of a strip club.
That's crazy to me, and I think it's something that many who own firearms for home-defense fail to adequately think through.

I may come to the wrong conclusions, and I may make the wrong choices -- but goodness, for my family's sake, and that of my neighbors/fellow Americans, I want to know that I at least gave it some thought (and discussed it with people who have more experience, knowledge and expertise).

Quote:
C0untZer0

Last time I checked rooms are separated by 2 sheets of drywall.

Not sure where the logic is here.
Apologies -- what I should've said was, "For the shotgun advocates, the fact that 00 or #1 Buck only penetrated 6-8 sheets is proof positive that a good pump-action is most likely to fire (out of the three most common types of home-defense weapons) the best type of home-defense round that will devastate the bad guy without...."


Thanks all, for the discussion.

respectfully,
Moose

Last edited by anonimoose; November 22, 2011 at 12:49 AM.
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Old November 22, 2011, 12:08 AM   #35
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My home defense is a modified shortened barreled 10 gauge.
10 GAUGE TACTICAL.jpg

Load it with whatever you want. It will do the job at 10 meters.
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Old November 22, 2011, 12:15 AM   #36
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Shooting buckshot through a rifled barrel or through a barrel with anything tighter than an IC choke can, and often will, cause the pellets to smash into each other, causing a flattening of what started as a sphere. A sphere that experiences a flattening event will not fly true, causing the so-called "flyer." Flyers are bad. Shoot buckshot through a smooth bore with no tighter choke than Improved Cylinder if you want to produce a reliable and predictable pattern. If you don't care about that kind of stuff, go ahead, do whatchalike.

As for me, it's 00 buckshot in a smooth bore 18" 12 gauge. I know my house and what the pattern is going to be at the various distances in my house.
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Old November 22, 2011, 03:44 AM   #37
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okay, we can argue this subject all day long, with everyone sticking to their own opinion. for me, I keep my Handgun loaded with +p Hollowpoint rounds. This is due to the fact that I know as soon as they hit something, they are going to dump all of their energy. most people buy ball ammunition, or FMJ ammo due to the fact that they are cheaper, however, these are the type of ammunition in Handguns that have the Highest chance of going thru multiple walls. This is also true with High Velocity Rifle rounds like the .223/5.56 rounds for example, these rounds are made for penetration, they are made to bring down things like Deer, and People at a distance, at close range, I have seen with my own eyes 5.56 rounds blast straight thru a human body at 2-3 hundred meters, and also penetrate thru both sides of a vehicle. AS for the assumption that at 10 meters you will not miss, that is a bunch of BS, expecially if you have just been woken up and its dark in the room, even for someone like me, who has had 14 years of combat training, in that situation, chances are you are going to fire multiple rounds, and only a few will hit. In my personal opinion, and I keep one of these in my house. the best home protection Combination is a "Greener" or "Coach Gun", a sawed off double barrel 12 gauge, preferably loaded with Buck Shot. Like the saying Went in the Old West, "there is always a Burying with Buckshot" Even if you do miss, they ain't gonna stop running until they pass out.

Last edited by JohnKSa; November 22, 2011 at 10:36 PM. Reason: .
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Old November 22, 2011, 03:46 AM   #38
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Plus, anywhere up to 25 feet, expecially if you fire both barrels, you are almost guaranteed to hit your target
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Old November 22, 2011, 05:06 PM   #39
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Quote:
Point taken -- but a lot of our discussions on this forum concern this or that hypothetical situation that are highly unlikely to begin with. I mean, just how likely are you to ever need a firearm? And if you need one, actually fire it in anger? And if you fire it, actually hit (which is the only time that caliber matters)?
With me a every few years apparently. But I have yet to hit anyone I was not trying to.

Worst case scenario in life I walk out of the house and the Wiley Coyote drops a safe on my head. But that won't happen either. I don't spend a lot of time worrying about things that simply don't happen.

Quote:
Plus, anywhere up to 25 feet, expecially if you fire both barrels, you are almost guaranteed to hit your target
I am not so sure about that.
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Old November 23, 2011, 07:41 AM   #40
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As the discussion above demonstrates, I believe that analyzing the home-defense round's performance at different ranges (10, 25 and 100 meters) adds a new perspective
I would like to see someone use in a SD situation at the distance of 25 meters (82.5') and at 100 meters (330') that I had to shoot being in intimate danger.
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Old November 23, 2011, 08:38 AM   #41
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Don, it depends on where you live. I will give you a real example from here that is fairly recent. A property dispute over some cattle led to the assailants pinning down a car at just over 100 yards with rifle fire. They kept shooting until they thought they had hit everyone (they did not hit anyone as it turns out). The assailants did not then advance but high tailed it out of there thankfully. The victims were not armed, wished they were, and are now. The only thing that saved those folks was the failure of the assailants to hit them and the failure to follow the attack through. I would think shooting back would be justified as legitimate self defense. Granted this is not a real common scenario but don't think is does not happen, it does.

I will not mention the county, but due to the very poor LE work, and I am being charitable here, and almost non existent prosecution in that county, there were some minor charges filed and then nolled. Attempted murder, and Armed Criminal Action come to mind as perhaps appropriate, but who am I to say.
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Old November 23, 2011, 10:08 AM   #42
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Jhenry, I remember that case. I may be confusing it with another, I'm remembering a few details differently. Bottom line in that case is that you had a bunch of hillbilly dirtbags that hated and harrassed their neighbors, and finally went the last full measure of intimidation and opened fire on them. I don't remember it being so much a failure of LE officials, so much as a failure of law. They lived in an unzoned area, they never openly broke any laws or engaged in prosecutable behavior, so LE couldn't really do anything about it.

Those people didn't belong in polite society.
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Old November 23, 2011, 10:18 AM   #43
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double post
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Old November 23, 2011, 10:09 PM   #44
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aim straight

From data I've read, almost all shootouts are at 0 to 20 feet (that's feet, not yards) and that police studies show that cops miss 80% of the time...

So, at 10 meters the average home defender will probably miss almost all the time!

My solution is to train at 0-20feet and concentrate on getting the first good hit with buckshot.

Anything you shoot that goes thru a wall or out a door or window is a hazard to the public. There is really nothing you can do to minimize this other than hit the BG soon with something that will stop him.

Pistol caliber carbines, like any gun, are better than nothing. I sold all of mine when I figured out that nothing beats a shotgun a close range and nothing beats a real carbine at medium range. Pistol caliber carbines are a needless compromise.
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Old November 28, 2011, 06:38 PM   #45
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Shooters,

Thank you all for your input. Now that I've read a bit more, I (somewhat) regret opening up this can of worms.


ORIGINAL INTENT

I had thought it would be helpful to:

Minor point of discussion:
1. Distinguish between self-defense rounds vs. self-defense weapons

Major point of discussion:
2. Dissect/debate misses. While the Box O'Truth offered great insights into how misses will effect the kids in the next room, I thought it didn't adequately consider how misses will effect the neighbors down the street at distances of 100 meters or more. Is it better for the Joneses at the end of the block if you're flinging 00 buck or 5.56x45mm? Having seen what an AR can do to steel plates from 500 meters away, I thought the answer was self-evident.


WHAT I'VE LEARNED

I was wrong. This gentlemen does a direct head to head comparison between rifle, pistol and shotgun rounds:
http://230grain.com/showthread.php?6...is-Test-(Adpat)

The Box O' Truth himself chimes in here on a thread comparing 5.56x45mm vs. Buckshot:
http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/view...p?f=7&t=257357

Thus, I must humbly agree with the conventional wisdom of those on TFL. Of the three classic home-defense rounds (9x19mm JHP, 5.56x45mm TAP and 00 buckshot), the errant rifle round that has gone through an intermediate barrier and started fragmenting, tumbling and yawing is least likely to hurt the kids in the next room or the neighbors next door. Even if the Joneses who live at the end of the block start shooting at the bad guys (and they're horrible shots), you're actually safer if they use their AR/EBR and not their trusty Remington/Mossy. That seems crazy to me -- but I can't dispute the research/evidence.

Unless of course, the bad guy is standing in front of a large unopened window with unobstructed line of sight 100 meters down the block to the outdoor hammock in the front yard where you happen to be sleeping, looking like one of these:



and Mr. Jones suddenly has flashbacks to the rifle range at boot camp....
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Old November 29, 2011, 10:45 PM   #46
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Who'd miss like that? The guy freaked out of his mind on adrenalin because that bump in the night turned into a "ooh, there's a guy I don't know in the living room at 3:43 AM". That's who.

Go down to your local USPSA/IDPA/Bowling Pin league and just watch. Low level stress like the gallery watching you will make you miss.
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Old November 30, 2011, 01:56 AM   #47
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Quote:
The consensus on TFL seems to be that in a home defense setting, a miss with a pistol presents a greater risk to people in the next room/home than a miss with a shotgun or rifle. The errant pistol caliber round stays intact and penetrates more walls, whereas errant buckshot or frangible rifle caliber rounds will slow down/get stopped more readily
Frangible bullets are available for pistol and rifle. A rifle with a typical hunting round, in larger calibers, has tremendous penetration.
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Old November 30, 2011, 02:03 AM   #48
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For what it's worth I think the best HD weapon, albeit illegal, is a sawed off double barrel with 00 buck. Just about guaranteed to hit what your pointing at.
Sorry, my man. A sawed off shotgun is still just a cylinder bore. It will produce a pattern at typical home SD distances of a few inches and isn't guaranteed to hit anything unless it's precisely pointed. At short distances, the choke (or lack of) makes little difference.

True, it's shorter bbl. makes it easier to use at close quarters.
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Old November 30, 2011, 02:10 AM   #49
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For what it's worth I think the best HD weapon, albeit illegal, is a sawed off double barrel with 00 buck.
Since when is a sawed off shotgun illegal? You just have to get the tax stamp. But I agree it would be no more effective than a 20" cylinder bore gun. Just maybe a little easier to swing around without knocking lamps off of tables and such.

Many of the guns we commonly talk about here are "illegal" if you don't follow the law when aquiring them.
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Old November 30, 2011, 03:17 AM   #50
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I don't have much to add to this discussion, but will throw my $.02 regarding short barreled shotguns and the need to aim. I always believed point and shoot would be easy until I bought a 12ga pump with an 18" barrel and started to shoot some stuff. At HD distances the pattern is quite small. If you think a solid hit with 00 buckshot (or even #1) is a given, esp in a high stress situation, you might be very surprised at the worst possible time. Maneuvering a shotgun in tight quarters is also not as easy as I thought it would be. I think it is a very formidable defensive weapon, but like everything else it takes time and practice IMHO.
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