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Old November 29, 2011, 01:11 AM   #1
GI Sandv
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CCW Pursues, Shoots Robber

About a month ago a Minnesota carry permit holder pursued a man who had attacked and robbed a woman. After chasing the robber into a corner of a parking lot, the robber pulled a gun on the permit holder who then drew, shot and killed the thief. The story is here:

http://kstp.com/news/stories/S2338311.shtml?cat=1

A few details are a bit sketchy and have been reported differently by different sources, among them the age of the woman--I have seen her age go from 53 to 80s. Also, it's still unclear whether the permit holder was merely a "witness" to the initial attack and robbery or if he had actually come upon it and tried to stop it.

This case raises an interesting point: are responsibly armed citizens prevented from helping out their neighbors?

It seems to me that with the hassle of getting a gun permit and the detail with which you have to study the law, just to carry legally, most permit holders take seriously the incumbent responsibilities, as well as obligations to protect those around them. Listening to critics saying this armed citizen should have done nothing, I thought, "if not him, then who?"

Generally, I think we would all prefer to live in a world where we could count on a passer-by to help us if we fell over from a heart attack or were being jumped by four punks. But, anecdotally at least, we've all come to realize that this isn't our world. As a result, we put a premium on people who do actually go out of their way to help someone out--police departments give them awards, the news interviews them, etc.

The problem, as I see it, is that these two segments of society largely overlap. On the one hand, you have people willing to take personal risks to help others out. This type of involvement is considered good. On the other hand, you have people who routinely carry a weapon for self-defense. When they engage in similar behavior, this can have dire consequences and we generally label their involvement as bad. So, in effect, society has to choose which is better. We either allow people who carry to stay engaged and help others out, but risk the chance that a BG will occasionally get hurt. Or, alternately, we continue to deplore any activity by an armed citizen unless it is absolutely a life or death necessity, and lose the benefit of these members' willingness to take risks to help others.

NOTE: in none of this do I support vigilantism. I'm merely attempting to get at the gray areas presented to armed citizens anytime they confront these situations.
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Old November 29, 2011, 02:19 AM   #2
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I hear you GI... It's an interesting episode... The media report quite strongly using the phrase "good samaritan"... leads me to think that the witnesses must have been generally supportive of the permit holder and the press picked up on that enough to put out an also-supportive report.

The fact that he was released after questioning is clearly an indicator that the investigating LEOs also feel his actions were within legal bounds.

Feels to me that there is a little cultural shift happening these days... That more and more people are beginning to understand what most posters here have known a long time; that responsible citizens who carry can have a very positive impact on their communities... that LEOs can't always be where they're needed... that there are SOME instances when malevolent force can be met and successfully neutralized by concerned citizens.

Again, hearing media people use the phrase "good samaritan" in reference to a CCWer shooter is really quite remarkable... Thanks for the link GI!

Here's more:

http://www.startribune.com/local/min...132311553.html

http://blogs.citypages.com/blotter/2...ovich.php#more

Here's a follow-up report from two weeks later:

http://kstp.com/article/stories/s2349047.shtml
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Old November 29, 2011, 07:50 AM   #3
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Quote:
This case raises an interesting point: are responsibly armed citizens prevented from helping out their neighbors?
Sorry, but I don't see this as a question raised by the event.
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Old November 29, 2011, 08:20 AM   #4
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"we continue to deplore any activity by an armed citizen unless it is absolutely a life or death necessity, and lose the benefit of these members' willingness to take risks to help others."

Deplore? I haven't seen it. The law however doesn't typically let you chase people and shoot them after the robbery is over.

The woman was in no danger when the shooting happened. I think the man could be in trouble for instigating the shootout. We will see.

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Old November 29, 2011, 10:24 AM   #5
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The law however doesn't typically let you chase people and shoot them after the robbery is over.
While some states may still have an obligation to retreat, you most certainly have the legal ability to chase a robber in an attempt to stop a crime that is still in progress and/or to recover stolen items. Additionally, lethal force may be used when such force is threatened by the bad guy. In this case, the bad guy drew a gun. At that point, the CCW holder definitely had the legal right to defend himself with lethal force. This issue at that point had nothing to do with the woman being in jeopardy.

Also, it may well be argued that since the CCW holder had witnessed the attack where the woman was struck in the head with the gun that the suspect in flight posed a threat to public safety.
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Old November 29, 2011, 10:56 AM   #6
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Quote:
... lethal force may be used when such force is threatened by the bad guy. In this case, the bad guy drew a gun. At that point, the CCW holder definitely had the legal right to defend himself with lethal force. This issue at that point had nothing to do with the woman being in jeopardy.
The above is the crux... Short version is that 3 perps were on a multi-event crime spree and, of course, preferred that everyone "mind their own business."

In the video follow-up link above; The interview with the two sisters of the slain perp reveals their level of "denial" too... One of them says, "This is not Gotham City... He's not Batman." ... and then the voiceover says she adds that "robbing someone was wrong but not a reason to kill her brother..."

Well... He WASN'T shot outright for hitting the woman and taking her purse!
He was shot because he drew a gun on the "good samaritan". He had other choices available when the good samaritan encountered him; He could have given the purse back. He could have driven away. But he didn't. He drew his gun... And THAT was the new scenario that justified the shooting. The good samaritan didn't PLAN it that way... It's just the way events unfolded.
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Old November 29, 2011, 11:35 AM   #7
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"I'm merely attempting to get at the gray areas presented to armed citizens anytime they confront these situations."

As far as I am concerned personally, it's not a gray area.

I don't chase.


This one is, I think, quite a bit different from some of the other's that have cropped up.

This one can be (IF the stories are accurate) seen as almost two different crimes.

Crime one was the mugging.

The AC chased the guy (any indiciation if he chased him with his carry gun out?), after which the second crime cropped up when the mugger pulled a gun.

I could see the AC being in trouble IF he chased the mugger with his gun out.

If, however, he was simply chasing to recover property and drew after the mugger drew his gun, I would think it would be a clean shooting.
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Old November 29, 2011, 12:41 PM   #8
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Here you go, Mike...
Quote:
Unfortunately for Evanovich, the Good Samaritan had a carry permit and a handgun of his own — which he drew and fired after Evanovich drew first.
http://hotair.com/archives/2011/10/2...itan-shooting/

Basically, not only were no charges filed, all this taking place in October, but the Good Sam was commended for his actions.
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Old November 29, 2011, 12:49 PM   #9
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Yeah, I saw that I had missed a link when I read through everything.
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Old November 29, 2011, 02:00 PM   #10
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After chasing the robber into a corner of a parking lot, the robber pulled a gun on the permit holder who then drew, shot and killed the thief.
I reckon it comes down to how much right one has to recover property when stolen, short of committing a homicide. That won't be allowed in any U.S.jurisdiction outside of Texas.

But when the robber pulled out a gun, that was the start of a new crime, and the shooter's response was in self defense. Unless the cops simply wrote the whole thing up as an armed robbery come to a favorable conclusion.
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Old November 29, 2011, 02:14 PM   #11
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What Mike said in #7 pretty much summarizes my opinion as well. I figure that my obligation is to be as good a witness as I possibly can and to render aid to the victim. The police can catch the bad guy.

Maybe my philosophy is different from others, but when I'm carrying a firearm, my goal is to do everything I can to keep myself out of a situation where I'd need to use it. (The corollary to that is when I'm not carrying, I do everything I can to keep myself out of a situation where I wished that I had one.)
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Old November 29, 2011, 03:12 PM   #12
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One brief comment, this is a reason that one should have some realistic FOF training. Did some last weekend. When the firefight starts - you will be surprised how the good guy who intervenes sometimes gets hosed. It's not that easy just to 'take them out' - with a head shot.

So FOF is closest to testing your abstract warrior intentions.
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Old November 29, 2011, 03:16 PM   #13
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FOF = Friend Or Foe?

???
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Old November 29, 2011, 04:17 PM   #14
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Force on Force, not IFF (identify Friend or Foe).

Quote:
Maybe my philosophy is different from others, but when I'm carrying a firearm, my goal is to do everything I can to keep myself out of a situation where I'd need to use it. (The corollary to that is when I'm not carrying, I do everything I can to keep myself out of a situation where I wished that I had one.)
Ah, so you are not one of the self appointed 'sheepdogs' who make it their business to tend to other people's problems because you are of a moral character above the general population, having superior bravery, and superior skills? I am poking fun at the good Colonel's story, of course. There are those who make a mission in life to help others regardless of the cost. It is nice, but not something everything can do or should do. However, there are a lot of folks that think because they are armed with a gun that they should be righting wrongs, protecting everyone they see. I don't know why they just don't become cops.
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Old November 29, 2011, 04:39 PM   #15
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It all boils down to: Are you willing to trade your freedom, family and everything you have worked for, for a total stranger. Because the police and prosecutor will be looking for any legal mistake you may have made. And the perpetrator / family members will have a pro bono lawyer looking to relieve you and your family of everything you own.
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Old November 29, 2011, 05:50 PM   #16
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this thread is a duplicate but a good one
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Old November 30, 2011, 04:54 PM   #17
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Ah, so you are not one of the self appointed 'sheepdogs' who make it their business to tend to other people's problems because you are of a moral character above the general population, having superior bravery, and superior skills? I am poking fun at the good Colonel's story, of course.
Nope, just a guy trying to keep himself and his family alive and knows that taking off in hot pursuit of a criminal such as described above puts his children at an added risk of having no father and his family in grave financial jeopardy.

CCW permits are not superhero uniforms or police badges. I'll step in where it makes sense and that does not include chasing a criminal unless he is stealing a child.
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Old December 1, 2011, 09:13 AM   #18
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"After chasing the robber into a corner of a parking lot, the robber pulled a gun on the permit holder who then drew, shot and killed the thief."

I suppose a lawyer for the deceased's family could (will?) make a case for self defense. The deceased was cornered by a stranger (we don't know if the permit holder's gun was visible or not), but he was in a corner and felt threatened. So he defended himself and was killed by this stranger who was chasing him.

Stay tuned for the court case.

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Old December 1, 2011, 10:41 AM   #19
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Good point. If the good guy chaser wasn't authorized to use lethal force in this instance - it may well be self-defense on the crook's part to draw a gun. Independent of ideological positions, the law books I read on this suggest that the good guy is in the wrong.
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Old December 1, 2011, 11:15 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GI Sandv
It seems to me that with the hassle of getting a gun permit and the detail with which you have to study the law, just to carry legally, most permit holders take seriously the incumbent responsibilities,...

I don't know about where you live but around here there is generally little or no hassle in getting a permit and certainly no studying of the law. We fill out the forms, get fingerprints and get a permit. Sometimes there are classes involved, which might even MENTION some portion of the physical force laws but that's as far as it goes.

Short story, most people with permits (around here) don't know the first dang thing about the physical force laws and what they do "know" is here-say and nonsense.
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Old December 1, 2011, 11:55 AM   #21
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Short story, most people with permits (around here) don't know the first dang thing about the physical force laws and what they do "know" is here-say and nonsense.
And this is why many states such as Texas require instruction and testing over the relevant use of force laws and use of lethal force laws.

Armed and ignorant of the law isn't a good combination.
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Old December 1, 2011, 12:19 PM   #22
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Seems like this guy and his sister liked armed robbery, so I'm not personally too upset over his getting shot. However, if the guy was leaving the scene the most I'd have done is follow him until I could get the cops there. If he wasn't pointing his gun at me or someone else right at that instant I wouldn't have risked the possible jail time or legal hassles that could crop up from this.

I don't have a caped crusader complex and I'm way too fond of my stuff to risk it.
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Old December 1, 2011, 12:48 PM   #23
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"Sometimes there are classes involved, which might even MENTION..."

The $50 class I took even included a speech by a lawyer who knew the gun laws at that time - it was 15 or 20 years ago.
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Old December 1, 2011, 12:57 PM   #24
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Yeah... I suppose it's likely that some pro-bono lawyer will approach the deceased perp's relatives to sue the "good samaritan" on spec... Unlikely to win any damages but the cost of defense counsel would be a burden on him... Hmmph...
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Old December 1, 2011, 01:17 PM   #25
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Is it just me or has the world flipped upside down.???

Two people hold up a woman at gun point, pistol whip her and run. A CCW holder gives chase and catches up. Bad guy/girl draw gun(s) on CCW holder.

CCW holder shoots and kills the guy.

Now he is the focus of a criminal investigation??? *** is wrong with this world.

At the same time people bitch about others standing around and doing nothing when women are attacked or raped in public.

The law needs to decide that is okay to help others who are being attacked. It needs to decide that when you rob/rape/attack/burglarize etc you are a criminal and those who have to act to defend against them are in fact the victims here. Sorry, but it is insane to require you to hand over all your stuff house/car/money and run like a coward vs defending yourself or others.

It seems the Police and DAs around the country are more concerned with what good people do with guns to defend themselves and their property instead of focusing on bad guys/gals. It seem simple. If you do not want to risk getting shot, do not rob/attack/rape/assault/burglarize etc... If you do IMHO it is just tough what happens to you.

I guess I am too old at 54 as it is now wrong to defend yourself and others. And right to feel all teary about a robber/rapist/burglar who by their own action gets killed/or shot.

We really need to wake up people and vote these DAs and judges out who feel law abiding citizens defending themselves are more dangerous than gangs. The truth is they go after law abiding citizens because it is way safer and easier than to arrest a real criminal....

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