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Old November 15, 2011, 01:17 AM   #26
chack
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It's a shame that he died, but it's his own fault. There are plenty of stupid gun owners out there, and this guy was almost certainly one of them.
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Old November 15, 2011, 07:35 AM   #27
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If I pocket carry I do so in a pocket holster with guns with heavy DA triggers. A heavy DA trigger like the one on a S&W 642 more than likely would have prevent this death.
Funny how such heavy triggers are also involved in regular holster NDs and related injuries.

Quote:
I have never reached into my holster to get my keys or cell phone.
Good for you, but as Technosavant noted, you should not be carrying other items in the same pocket that carries a firearm. Had the gun been in a proper holster, there would be no issue at all with the trigger's weight as there would be no way for the trigger to be depressed given that it would have been fully covered.
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Old November 15, 2011, 08:18 AM   #28
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Sad story, but also an opportunity to save other lives from such accidents. The combination of loose pocket carry and the Glock's known lighter than usual trigger resulted in a tragedy. Maybe it's a perception and not reality, but it does seem that Glocks are involved in a higher fraction of these incidents than their market share would indicate.
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Old November 15, 2011, 08:36 AM   #29
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In before the lock.

I feel for the family that lost a Dad - son - brother - uncle - .....

Please consider "how important is it to carry a loaded handgun for a trip to the store"

In certain local neighborhoods that i visit, I can understand it. But - whatever problem he may have addressed with the pistol, he may have been able to address with a can of pepper spray.
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Old November 15, 2011, 08:43 AM   #30
chack
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But - whatever problem he may have addressed with the pistol, he may have been able to address with a can of pepper spray.
...or carrying with an empty chamber...
...or carrying in the glovebox...
...or carrying a keltec with a heavy long trigger...
...or carrying in a holster...

I said it before and I'll say it again, there are way too many idiots that carry like they think they need to be prepared for the end of the world. I completely respect his decision to carry, but he was a moron for carrying the WAY he did.
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Old November 15, 2011, 09:02 AM   #31
Bartholomew Roberts
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Here is how I've managed to pocket carry my Glock 26 in condition one safely since 2001:

1. Have a good quality holster designed for the pistol you are carrying, even for pocket carry. I use a Galco Pocket Holster designed for the Glock 26. It covers the trigger completely and is rigid enough that nothing can protrude into the trigger guard.

2. There should not be anything in the pistol pocket but the pistol.

3. Good quality formal instruction goes a long way in helping you recognize potentially unsafe carrying practices.

Most importantly, if you aren't confident you can carry the gun safely, don't carry it until you learn how to do that from a competent instructor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chadio
Please consider "how important is it to carry a loaded handgun for a trip to the store"
I'm sorry; but that doesn't have a damn thing to do with the problem. The problem is that he carried the handgun in an unsafe manner. Everyday around the United States there are pistols in grocery stores hundreds of thousands of times and yet nobody gets shot because for the most part, they are carried in a safe manner.

The whole idea behind carrying "only when you need it" is nonsense. If I had the ability to know when I would need it, I wouldn't go there to begin with. And sadly, trouble shows up in the most unlikely places - like this robbery inside a Sugar Land, TX Randall's grocery store in which an off-duty deputy was shot. Sugar Land is not a rough area and in fact, one of the witnesses talks about how she has never seen anything like that in her 13 years of living there. She just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, even though the wrong place looked exactly like that perfectly safe place she had been using regularly for 13 years.
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Old November 15, 2011, 09:05 AM   #32
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The other part of the article I did not understand is why it appears he waited to call 911 after shooting himself. I certainly would not have waited until my wife returned to the car to call for help if I had just shot myself.
This is what I don't get. And even after she came back, he said he "thought" he shot himself? If a .40 pistol goes off... inside your pocket... how can you have any doubt about what happened?
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Old November 15, 2011, 09:26 AM   #33
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i know nothing about Glocks, but i do occasionally carry my SIG P-226 Navy in my BDU's side pocket which i have a sewn in holster and never carry anything else in that pocket, the spare mag. is in the left pocket.

very sorry to hear of this accident. best wishes and condolences to the family.
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Old November 15, 2011, 09:35 AM   #34
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The other part of the article I did not understand is why it appears he waited to call 911 after shooting himself. I certainly would not have waited until my wife returned to the car to call for help if I had just shot myself.
I think she was close enough so that she immediately double-backed. By the article, they were talking before he even knew exactly what happened. He told his wife, "I think I shot myself."
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Old November 15, 2011, 09:39 AM   #35
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1)
Quote:
It's a shame that he died, but it's his own fault. There are plenty of stupid gun owners out there, and this guy was almost certainly one of them.
Actually Chack, that thinking has proven to be a problem in the past. You just might be right, so I am not unsympathetic to your post. The fact of the matter though is we do not know this man's background or expertise level by reading this article. He might've had years and years experience with firearms. We do not know what exactly transpired and/or led to the AD/ND either.


2)
Quote:
In before the lock.
why would it be locked Chadio?
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Old November 15, 2011, 09:52 AM   #36
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"or expertise level by reading this article"

That's statement is true, but what reputable trainer, school, government agency or military branch teaches pocket carry without a holster? I know, the advanced school of Mexican carry.

And do some of the people posting in this thread really believe that when we discuss pocket carry on TFL we are talking about doing it without a holster? Let's clear that up right now.

Forgot something. From the articles I've read, she heard the POP because she was standing at the RedBox on the sidewalk and the van was parked right there in the fire lane. He was in shock I'm guessing.
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Old November 15, 2011, 10:17 AM   #37
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Holster carry would have prevented this.


I still don't see a seat belt rubbing a trigger guard and pulling the trigger.I'm going out on a limb by saying he either had something else in that pocket or he had alted the trigger in some way.Think about it,how would a seat belt hit the trigger while his gun was in his pants pocket,there is more to this story than meets the eye.

I've been carrying glocks for some time now i have altered all my triggers but the one my wife carrys and i've never had a n/d a/d.Heck i've had my sig 229 slide all the way down my leg,hit the ground and across the parking lot and nothing happened,well except for scaring me and 3 little ole ladies.
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Old November 15, 2011, 10:18 AM   #38
chack
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I pocket carry quite often, without a holster.

My Keltec P11 has a belt clip on it as does my NAA .22 in a holster grip.

The 11 pound trigger on my DAO keltec makes it pretty safe even when I'm not using the clip, but I still leave the chamber empty unless I am in a situation where I percieve a heightened risk.

In a mini van with yoour kids is not a risk area, and even if it was, there would have been no speed advantage to drawing from his pocket while seated compared to pulling it out of the glovebox or center console.
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Old November 15, 2011, 10:31 AM   #39
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using a saf=t=blok

would have prevented this
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Old November 15, 2011, 10:46 AM   #40
therealdeal
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John I agree w/your post, but it isn't confirmed how he was carrying. I too disagree about carrying without a holster whether in the pocket or not.

...as for the seatbelt thing, I'm guessing he bent over or twisted somehow putting strain on the firearm(and inturn got a more direct, deadly shot on himself). Maybe he ws a big guy or something.
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Old November 15, 2011, 10:51 AM   #41
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Quote:
This is what I don't get. And even after she came back, he said he "thought" he shot himself? If a .40 pistol goes off... inside your pocket... how can you have any doubt about what happened?
In a word, shock. Without any good description of exactly how this occurred we can only guess, but I would suspect that the bullet managed to hit one of the major blood vessels in the legs. When you lose blood, you don't think quite as clearly, and even then the body's response to a major injury is shock- he might not have felt the true nature of the wound.
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Old November 15, 2011, 11:24 AM   #42
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In a word, shock.
Agreed.

I watched a pickup truck right in front of me leave the highway and roll no less than six times after a front tire blowout. A passenger in the bed of the truck was thrown clear and wound up with a severe compound fracture of her leg and two broken wrists. She also had a broken pelvis. Not only did the passenger did not realise that her thigh bone was protruding from the back of her leg...trying SEVERAL times to stand up and walk toward the truck, but she could not understand why she was unable to retrieve her cell phone from the back pocket of her shorts with her broken wrists.

Shock is a very strange thing.

Last edited by Skadoosh; November 15, 2011 at 11:32 AM.
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Old November 15, 2011, 11:26 AM   #43
Don P
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Well all I will add to this is and it may be a smidgen off. At a local private gun range here in FLA there were not 1 but 2 negligent discharges at 2 different competition matches. 1 resulted in death and the other resulted in a 45 through the calf. Go figure
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Old November 15, 2011, 11:57 AM   #44
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It's been a bad time for NDs lately in central VA. We had a PD officer ND a round through his hand late last week. It's enough to make a fellow want to keep some quickclot with him at all times.

I'll admit to holsterless pocket carrying as well, but it's generally either my SP101 or wifey's S&W 638 airweight bodyguard. I never keep other items in the same pocket, and both revolvers have tremendously heavy triggers (9# and 12# DA pulls respectively) and low profile hammers to avoid negligent cocking.
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Old November 15, 2011, 12:40 PM   #45
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IMO glocks are too thick to even consider just dropping it into my pocket or sticking it down a waist.
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Old November 15, 2011, 12:49 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by therealdeal

We just lost one of our own to a AD/ND
Quote:
Originally Posted by therealdeal

Forgive me for the title, but I wanted TFL Members to see this article.
Quote:
Originally Posted by therealdeal

No about member but I guess it is possible. I would like to think that he was a fellow CCWer pro 2nd amendment.
"No about member ..."

Say what?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarge

Then change the damn thread title. I do not appreciate seeing such a post, opening it with the dread that we had lost a member, and then finding out the 'our own' part was sensationalism to get people to open it. ...
I agree with Sarge, although maybe not in the exact language.

Intentionally mistitling a thread in order to get members to open it is a spammer's technique and will get you in trouble on TFL.

***

Chadio, what is this lock to which you refer?
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Old November 15, 2011, 12:56 PM   #47
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Most importantly, if you aren't confident you can carry the gun safely, don't carry it until you learn how to do that from a competent instructor.
OK, guys. Allow me to recount a conversation I have at least twice a week with customers. It might put things into perspective.

Him: "I need a gun. What, with all the gangs and secular humanists and people in political office I don't like, yada yada..."

Me: "OK. What have you shot before?"

Him: "Well, I shot with my buddy once back in 1974. He knew a cop. The gun was a big thing, with a thingamabob hangning off the bottom..."

Me: "OK...um, what's the intended purpose of the gun?"

Him: "CCW. EDC. Concealed. Tactical."

Me: "Well, for a new shooter, I'd recommend something..."

Him: "Hey, lemme see that one!"

Me: "That's a very small gun, with a long trigger pull and marginal sights. It's not the best thing to learn with."

Him: "What's there to learn? You point the thing, you pull the trigger 'till the clip's empty."

Me: "Well, there's more to it than that. We offer classes..."

Him: "Oh hell, no. Look, I know you're here to sell stuff, but I just need a gun. I want it as small and light as possible, so it fits in my pocket."

Me: "OK. We've got a couple of pocket holsters that..."

Him: "I already told you. I don't need a holster. I just need the gun. You're trying to ramp up the sale and rip me off. This is why I hate gun shops!"

Me: "Oh, sweet Jesus."

Him: "What?"

Me: "Nothing. I can assure you that you at least need a..."

Him: "Just give me some shells and let me get on my way. Can you load it up for me?"

Me: "Hell no. At the very least, please promise me you're going to read the manual."

Him: "Whatever. It's my right."

There are many, many more of these people than you want to believe carrying guns around.
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Old November 15, 2011, 12:57 PM   #48
Onward Allusion
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It is horrible what happen to this guy.

It's not about whether it was a Glock, Sigma, Kel-Tec, Ruger or any other pistol or revolver that doesn't have a safety. Bottom line is that one should avoid pocket carry with one in the pipe unless one is using a holster that is stiff enough around the trigger to prevent it from being touched/moved/pulled...etc.
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Old November 15, 2011, 01:16 PM   #49
chadio
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"I'm sorry; but that doesn't have a damn thing to do with the problem."
Bartholomew Roberts -

I support the right to keep and bear arms. I do it myself. But - I assure you, no one really needs a firearm on your person loaded - one - in - the - chamber

ALL OF THE TIME

Yes, my statement has something to do with the subject here. A guy died in case you missed that.
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Old November 15, 2011, 01:21 PM   #50
therealdeal
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sorry for mishap

You know what, I thought I had explained myself and to add further, if I did something wrong I figured something would've already happened. do what you want to do or you feel you should do. I was clear as to why I made that title, I FEEL we lost one of our own. I personally feel he was a CCWer pro 2nd amendment. It had nothing to do with TFL. I see nothing wrong with having a title that would draw people to the discussion. In other words and to clarify again: "We lost one of our own to AD/ND" wasn't about TFL, it was about fellow gun owners and CCWers. If I made a mistake on the title, it wasn't intentional and I apologize about that. Also, I'm not trying to vent to you Bud. I guess I just didn't agree with Sarge. TFL is a community but a smaller community of CCW who legally carry. Of course, it is possible this man wasn't CCW, but I tend to think he was and just succumbed to tragedy. Even if he wasn't, he should be legal in his vehicle in VA if he can own/buy firearms. Lastly, hasn't time passed where I an't change the title myself? all the best
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