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Old November 16, 2011, 07:35 PM   #51
kraigwy
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Another question.

Why can't states reconize other state's CC Permits like they do other States driver's licenses?

How is either unconstitutional?
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Old November 16, 2011, 07:37 PM   #52
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Well that is THE question isn't it? That's what the bill is all about, or am I missing something about your question?
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Old November 16, 2011, 07:58 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carry 24/7
Aren't most states already (for the most part) already recognizing each others permit?
No.

Some? Yes. Most? Definitely not. And it's very much a patchwork.
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Old November 16, 2011, 10:17 PM   #54
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If this bill passes SCOTUS will be useless in gun rights cases in my opinion.
That's what worries me: that this could diminish merit for a constitutional challenge on the issue. We really need SCOTUS to rule on a "right to carry."

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Did Hank Johnson just say there were 89 victims here?
Hank Johnson also thought that Guam would capsize. Georgians are not proud of him.

Carolyn McCarthy is, predictably, having a metaphorical aneurysm over the whole thing:

Quote:
I just finished telling my colleagues on the House floor what so many of you have told me -- H.R. 822 is despicable and needs to be stopped. It is a shameless attempt by the NRA to force states to recognize out-of-state conceal carry permits, even for criminals and the mentally ill.

I need your help to keep the message going. There's still time to stand up to the gun lobby and the Tea Party before the vote happens. Please join me and take action immediately.
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Old November 16, 2011, 10:56 PM   #55
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There is a certain disadvantage to being on the defense.

For decades in Illinois we mobilized to kill one anti-gun bill after another, always on the verge of facing even more restrictions, the dreaded gun registrations, and the abolishment of gun dealers and ranges.

We'd stop one horrific bill and while we were taking a breather the gun control lobby was already implementing their next plan.

It all changed when we became more effective at being proactive and sending gun legislation at the anti-gunners to deal with. They suddenly became the ones expending political capital just to keep bills from becoming law, preoccupied with lobbying to kill pro-gun measures, they haven't been able to effectively get their anti-gun measures off the ground.

I think this bill is a great shot at the gun control lobby, the anti-gun senators and the Obama administration.

It's a wake up call to the politicians who think they can take advantage of Obama's years in office to sneak through some anti-gun BS.
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Old November 17, 2011, 12:15 AM   #56
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Sorry, but this Virginian cannot support this measure, as viscerally appealing as it may be. This republic, before it was sundered and destroyed by the Least Emancipator, respected the proper rights of the individual states, which represented, of course, a delegation from the people. To quote Tony Montana, "Look at you now!"

Aside from that, we should carefully weigh what the fed.gov has done in every case where we've invited its tender mercies. Education, Health, Labor, Environment, and on and on it goes. In other words, a grotesque expansion of federal government power.
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Old November 17, 2011, 12:54 AM   #57
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Then I suppose, Mr. James, that you also think each state should immediately stop recognizing from the other states:
  • Drivers' licenses
  • Marriages
  • High school diplomas
  • Professional licenses
  • Court decrees (divorce, child custody, etc.)
  • Criminal convictions
  • Motor vehicle titles
  • Etcetera

After all, if no state should be forced to recognize what another state has officially enacted, why should MY state send your kid back to you when your ex-wife kidnaps her, just because YOUR state's court says you have custody?

I think you're on a slippery slope (although I suspect you think I am, so I guess that's even-up).
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Old November 17, 2011, 01:17 AM   #58
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CCW permits are a much different animal than marriage license, etc listed above. I don't know of any states that have overly restrictive requirements for those necessities. However, CCW permits are denied in many states and severely restricted in others. Despite that, if you look at the number of counties that are CCW friendly, we are winning the battle. It should state at the state level. Keep the FEDS out of this arena.
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Old November 17, 2011, 07:10 AM   #59
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The fact that this bill would allow me to carry throughout the UNITED States of America as a law abiding holder of of a carry permit issued by my state government would be beneficial for us in the states in the northeast. So many of us live in one state and work in others. Beneficial to the pipe welder from Georgia who has a legal ccw and gets a 6 month job contract to work in the midwest. Is there a potential for some disaster by it going through the federal gov? Maybe,but unlikely. Should it even be an issue to protect yourself with a legally owned firearm while traveling? No, but it is. It's fine if your state already has reciprocity with others. Does one really think after watching the debate that Mass or R.I. is going to change their laws on their own? The argument of voting the bums out doesn't come into play if you don't live in that state. The other way to try to get them to change is a lawsuit that could go to the Supreme Court if you're lucky. But that's highly unlikely. This at the very least forces dialogue. Can we all agree? Nope. Just look at the difference of opinions for the people on THIS forum. I do have an interest in seeing this pass because I do live in a state that is surrounded by others who are very restrictive and do not offer reciprocity. I would love to be able to take the family on vacations and know I can protect them if the need arises. My personal interest also goes back to the court case in which I had to defend myself in court in Mass on a gun charge that cost me 2 yrs and $17,000. Eventually being found not guilty by a jury which never would have happened if this bill was already in effect. That 17 grand was my new Camaro down payment! Never get that back but I was looking at 8 years day for day which means no time off for good behavior so I guess it was worth it. All for a gun that was legal in VA. I am not a legal expert, nor do I claim this would be the best for all or the best way to go about it. If there is a better way, realistically, let me know. I can only speak for my own situation and others similar. I do want to apologize to oneounceload for the way our last conversation on this went, it should not have gotten personal. When a man is wrong, a man admits it.
But again, if there is a better way than this bill, let's hear it.
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Old November 17, 2011, 08:10 AM   #60
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"The fact that this bill would allow me to carry throughout the UNITED States of America as a law abiding holder of of a carry permit issued by my state government would be beneficial for us in the states in the northeast."
--------------------------------------------------------

And what then? Subject ourselves to many other laws that are unfamiliar? I mean, many State/federal laws are not based on the right of the gun owner - civil tort claims, duty to retreat laws, brandishing a weapon charges, etc, etc..

Are we going to make all laws National? Of what value is an exchange of one system of monopoly for another? The word "united" is an averment of pre-existing social compacts, called states; and these consisted of the people of each separate state. It admits the existence of political societies able to contract with each other, and who had previously contracted.
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Old November 17, 2011, 08:27 AM   #61
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True, but they don't. So then what? Again I ask what is a better solution? And I am first an American THEN a CT citizen. My American rights should trump CT rights. If a state acts unfairly, then it is the duty of the federal government to step in and rectify that.
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Old November 17, 2011, 09:28 AM   #62
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Bill passed through the House and hopefully it stops/fails in the Senate
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Old November 17, 2011, 10:18 AM   #63
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Aguila Blanca, for what it's worth, my Professional Engineer license is not valid in most other states. I can apply for a PE license in other states either by taking a test or demonstrating that Idaho's standards meet those states' standards. But my Idaho license does not allow me to practice as a Professional Engineer in any state other than Idaho. Each state sets its own standards.

I'm not an expert on other professional licenses, but as far as I know, unless there is some sort of reciprocity agreement that has been negotiated between states, one state's professional license is not valid in another state.

Initially, I was in favor of this bill, but the more that I think about it, the less I like it. Don't get me wrong - I would very much like my Idaho CCW permit to be valid anywhere in the US. And I believe that the states' rights argument that has been raised by most of the opposition is a red herring, primarily because most of the opposition doesn't give a fig about states' rights, but, rather, can't stand the idea of private citizens owning firearms.

But it is an issue of states' rights for the very same reason that my Idaho Professional Engineering license isn't valid in, say, New York. Both states set minimum standards for licensing. As it happens, both states will issue a license to a PE whose state license meets the minimum standard of the other state. Since Idaho's standards are essentially the same as New York's, I could apply for a New York license if I wanted to practice there.

The same thing ought to go for CCW permits (but, I suppose, without the need for 49 different licenses). And, right now, that's the standard. As it happens, my Idaho CCW permit isn't valid in most states, primarily because there is no ready access to a database of license holders. If that's the standard that other states require for my license to be valid, then that's their right to insist upon.

Now, I understand that, as a citizen of the United States, I have a right to keep and bear arms. I also understand that it is not an unlimited right - the various governments can regulate it to a certain degree. So, at least in my mind, the national standard that has been set is that there is a right to own and carry a firearm. The means of ownership and the means of carry are not explicit and, just as one size of clothing doesn't really fit all, one size of firearms legislation does not suit the entire country. Thus, much as I don't like the fact that I cannot carry a concealed weapon in most states with my Idaho CCW permit, I respect the fact that other states have different standards for allowing concealed carry that are stricter than those of mine (as long as they don't fly in the face of the Constitution.)

By the way, you're all invited to Idaho. My state recognizes ever other state's permits.
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Old November 17, 2011, 10:24 AM   #64
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http://www.myfoxphoenix.com/dpp/news...s-apx-11172011

today's national news linked above.

if and when it passes senate, I think Obama will ignore it(which is the same as a veto virtually after about a couple weeks).

notice the ones against it are lawmakers from NY and the ones for it are AZ pro gun people.

It is really pretty simple, I have done a ton of stuff my wife was against and then she definately was glad after-the-fact. the same goes here for all the nay-sayers when it passes someday. You'll just have to deal with it.

If you get a CCW in your Home State then you are covered throughout US. States tried to stop LEOSA...they fought a really bad losing battle. That law is very simple and the same would go for here. You think the states are cutting the LEOs a break? No, the law covers them in the very small wordage it has.

Now Illinois and places like NYC or Hawaii you might be screwed, but one thing at a time. The law isn't going to make it harder for someone in VA, AK, TX, etc to CCW. It will open the door and allow these people to travel without the headache. After all, we are "one nation..."
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Old November 17, 2011, 10:56 AM   #65
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Next if this passes it will be all current issuing states will have to test exactly alike for CCW. It will also negate SCOTUS from intervening in 2nd amendment cases. No need to do so with national carry. I personally do not have a problem with the 33 states that honor my FLA permit. It will not do me any good in IL. DC, NYC, NJ, CA and most probably most of the north east.
In closing I hope it fails/stalls in the Senate.
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Old November 17, 2011, 11:10 AM   #66
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if and when it passes senate, I think Obama will ignore it(which is the same as a veto virtually after about a couple weeks).
That's only the case if Congress adjourns within ten days after the bill is passed. If Congress is still in session at the ten day point and the President has not signed the bill, it becomes law. The former is called a pocket veto and there's a pretty lively history of its use, going back to Lincoln.
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Old November 17, 2011, 11:15 AM   #67
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Amendment 10 was attached to have a GAO study done, after it's law, for recommendations(I assume) regarding verification procedure/effectiveness.

http://repcloakroom.house.gov/News/D...umentID=269102
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Old November 17, 2011, 12:44 PM   #68
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Now Illinois and places like NYC or Hawaii you might be screwed...
I wanted to fix my own statement. You might be screwed if you're from these states as it an be extremely hard or impossible(Illinois) to get a CCW in these states. That isn't gonna stop me from carrying in Hawaii when I visit though or stop the Dad from carrying in NYC when his daughter gets married, etc, etc
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Old November 17, 2011, 12:50 PM   #69
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Hardcase

Quote:
That's only the case if Congress adjourns within ten days after the bill is passed. If Congress is still in session at the ten day point and the President has not signed the bill, it becomes law. The former is called a pocket veto and there's a pretty lively history of its use, going back to Lincoln.
Thanks for clarifying

I do know one tidbit about Johnson who became President by default when Lincoln was murdered. He had the most vetoes in history if I am not mistaken.
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Old November 17, 2011, 12:58 PM   #70
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That isn't gonna stop me from carrying in Hawaii when I visit though or stop the Dad from carrying in NYC when his daughter gets married, etc, etc
Don't know about Hawaii but in NYC and the Sullivan act will get pops a minimum 1 year in the Tombs or Rikers if he gets caught and then kiss all the firearms good by.
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Old November 17, 2011, 01:13 PM   #71
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Don't know about Hawaii but in NYC and the Sullivan act will get pops a minimum 1 year in the Tombs or Rikers if he gets caught and then kiss all the firearms good by.
at the moment, Don, but when this bill eventually passes I will be able to travel to any state in America except Illinois if I have a valid CCW from my home state(which I do). That is the point of this bill.

Now I suppose places like Hawaii(where it is virtually impossible to get a CCW even though they have laws on the books allowing it+allowing people to apply), can just follow Illinois' example and strip CCW rights altogether. I don't think I am missing something with this bill, but please let me know if I am. It is clear and basically most opposition is just "scared" of change? You probably read the bill Don, but I think maybe others have no clue what it even says....

....but then again, why would they if they already made up their mind?
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Old November 17, 2011, 01:45 PM   #72
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H.R. 822, introduced in the U.S. House by Representatives Cliff Stearns (R-Fla.) and Heath Shuler (D-N.C.), allows any person with a valid state-issued concealed firearm permit to carry a concealed firearm in any state that issues concealed firearm permits, or that does not prohibit the carrying of concealed firearms for lawful purposes.

This bill does not affect existing state laws. State laws governing where concealed firearms may be carried would apply within each state’s borders. H.R. 822 does not create a federal licensing system or impose federal standards on state permits; rather, it requires the states to recognize each others' carry permits, just as they recognize drivers' licenses and carry permits held by armored car guards.

As of today, 49 states have laws in place that permit their citizens to carry a concealed firearm in some form. Only Illinois and the District of Columbia deny its residents the right to carry concealed firearms outside their homes or businesses for self-defense.
Do you really think that DC, NYC, IL, NJ and other cities will just bow down. You need to read the bill. You my be able to carry in NY BUT outside of NYC. All the States will have to do is pass legislation like in NYC. Place that are restricted now will still be restricted if this bill passes the Senate which I hope it does not.
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Old November 17, 2011, 01:47 PM   #73
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youngunz4life, go to this link and read the replies,
http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...ghlight=hb+822

This link will take you to the govs web sight so you can read the bill,
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c112:H.R.822: or just read it here,

Quote:
A BILL
To amend title 18, United States Code, to provide a national standard in accordance with which nonresidents of a State may carry concealed firearms in the State.


Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,

SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.

This Act may be cited as the `National Right-to-Carry Reciprocity Act of 2011'.

SEC. 2. RECIPROCITY FOR THE CARRYING OF CERTAIN CONCEALED FIREARMS.

(a) In General- Chapter 44 of title 18, United States Code, is amended by inserting after section 926C the following:

`Sec. 926D. Reciprocity for the carrying of certain concealed firearms

`(a) Notwithstanding any provision of the law of any State or political subdivision thereof (except as provided in subsection (b)), a person who is not prohibited by Federal law from possessing, transporting, shipping, or receiving a firearm, and who is carrying a valid identification document containing a photograph of the person, and a valid license or permit which is issued pursuant to the law of a State and which permits the person to carry a concealed firearm, may possess or carry a concealed handgun (other than a machinegun or destructive device) that has been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce, in any State, other than the State of residence of the person, that--

`(1) has a statute that allows residents of the State to obtain licenses or permits to carry concealed firearms; or

`(2) does not prohibit the carrying of concealed firearms by residents of the State for lawful purposes.

`(b) The possession or carrying of a concealed handgun in a State under this section shall be subject to the same conditions and limitations, except as to eligibility to possess or carry, imposed by or under Federal or State law or the law of a political subdivision of a State, that apply to the possession or carrying of a concealed handgun by residents of the State or political subdivision who are licensed by the State or political subdivision to do so, or not prohibited by the State from doing so.

`(c) In subsection (a), the term `identification document' means a document made or issued by or under the authority of the United States Government, a State, or a political subdivision of a State which, when completed with information concerning a particular individual, is of a type intended or commonly accepted for the purpose of identification of individuals.'.

(b) Clerical Amendment- The table of sections for such chapter is amended by inserting after the item relating to section 926C the following:

`926D. Reciprocity for the carrying of certain concealed firearms.'.

(c) Effective Date- The amendments made by this section shall take effect 90 days after the date of the enactment of this Act.

SEC. 3. GAO AUDIT OF THE STATES' CONCEALED CARRY PERMIT OR LICENSING REQUIREMENTS FOR NON-RESIDENTS.

(a) The Comptroller General of the United States shall conduct an audit of--

(1) the laws and regulations of each State that authorize the issuance of a valid permit or license to permit a person, other than a resident of such State, to possess or carry a concealed firearm, including a description of the permitting or licensing requirements of each State that issues concealed carry permits or licenses to persons other than a resident of such State;

(2) the number of such valid permits or licenses issued or denied (and the basis for such denials) by each State to persons other than a resident of such State; and

(3) the effectiveness of such State laws and regulations in protecting the public safety.

(b) Not later than 1 year after the date of enactment of this Act, the Comptroller General shall submit to Congress a report on the findings of the study conducted under subsection (a).
Union Calendar No. 187


112th CONGRESS

1st Session

H. R. 822

[Report No. 112-277]

A BILL
To amend title 18, United States Code, to provide a national standard in accordance with which nonresidents of a State may carry concealed firearms in the State.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


November 10, 2011

Reported with an amendment, committed to the Committee of the Whole House on the State of the Union, and ordered to be printed



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As Tom has stated on and earlier thread all a state has to do to mute this bill is stop issuing CCW permits and then the law is useless. Like I said we are better off without it.
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Old November 17, 2011, 01:55 PM   #74
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I'm reading your post...my CCW from my home state would allow me to carry in NYC. It isn't against the law for NYC residents to carry in NYC if you get a permit. Therefore, by law, my CCW would be legally acceptable in NYC, Hawaii, NJ, etc. These states make exercising your 2nd amendment and CCW rights Very Difficult.

I would still have to follow state laws such as 'must notify if pulled over' depending on the state, and other CCW laws. None of these laws would say I couldn't carry in the state I visit. That is their business with their own residents, and I think some people are gonna be a little fed up w/their congressmen & women if joe schmo can carry in there home state while visiting yet the law abiding home state residents who pay taxes are finding it nearly impossible to do the same thing.

Go on www.handgunlaw.us and read the LEOSA segments of different states with NJ and Hawaii being the main examples. They were not happy with LEOSA; NJ's governor tried to basically nudge all NJ agencies into not allowing these LEOs to carry off duty. It went nowhere. Obviously a LEO would follow the agnecy's protocol with which he is affiliated, but even if he didn't: by strict law he/she is covered by LEOSA.

When the bill passes people will get on with their lives. Some crazy, major shift isn't going to occur as these people have other things on their mind. The ones that try will only be dealing with their home state's residents anyways so how does that affect me when my state respects my CCW rights? In short, it doesn't. Worse case scenario, I have more CCW rights nationally than before the bill was passed anyways.
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Old November 17, 2011, 01:59 PM   #75
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Don

I just saw your follow-up post. I will check it out.

I mentioned the CCW state reversal thing eralier. That is sort of what I was getting at about the "major shift, craziness" at the end of my last post. I firmly believe this will not happen but there are ways around that if some try.

Quote:
Do you really think that DC, NYC, IL, NJ and other cities will just bow down.
They bowed down to LEOSA and it was the last thing they wanted to do. LEOSA took decades to pass.
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