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Old May 27, 2014, 07:21 PM   #1
Mosin-Marauder
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Mosin-Nagant M91/30, I think I'm improving.

So, at my first appleseed last weekend, I brought along my Mosin-Nagant as well as the 10/22. I shot, oh about 25-30 rounds. Before I left, I took the cork out of the barrel channel, sanded it down to get the adhesive off. And man, what a difference. I'm not sure if this is shooting better at 100 yards but it sure seems like it. The instructor told me to adjust the rear sight to 200m, as a good group at 25m is most likely going to be a good group at 200m. From my recent training in Minute of Angle and bullet drop, I've discovered that I need to aim a bit higher at 25m, maybe 1-2", and that I need to probably double that at 100m. My rifle isn't measured in clicks (I'll let you figure out why not) but at least I know I can kill medium-large game with this rifle and be reasonably accurate. Here's the target, let me know what you think.

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Old May 27, 2014, 07:24 PM   #2
DPris
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What distance, what aiming point?
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Old May 27, 2014, 07:28 PM   #3
Mosin-Marauder
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25 meters, Center square.
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Old May 27, 2014, 07:40 PM   #4
emcon5
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How did you do with the .22?
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Old May 27, 2014, 07:43 PM   #5
Mosin-Marauder
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I can't post all the puctures, but I'm definitely improving. My first AQT was scored at 146 haven't scored the rest yet.
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Old May 27, 2014, 07:51 PM   #6
dakota.potts
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I'm a little confused with your methodology.

You set up a target at 25 meters and shot at it by setting your sights to the 200m setting? Mosins shoot high even on the closest setting.

Maybe I'm not understanding. Was that target set up at 100 yards/meters?

If so, it is definitely improvement. I would suggest setting the target at 25 yards and seeing how you can improve your groups at that range and then bring it out to 50 and do the same before going to 100.
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Old May 27, 2014, 07:56 PM   #7
Mosin-Marauder
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Hey, I did what the instructors told me to. I'll take it out to 50 yards and 100 sometime soon. But yes, he said adjust your sights for 200 meters. It worked, so I'm not complaining.
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Old May 27, 2014, 08:06 PM   #8
Sierra280
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Congrats on the fun (and informative) Appleseed!!

Looks a whole lot better than the last MN target you posted.

200yds makes sense. The 25yd sight-in has been discussed in depth on TFL. Due to the trajectory an average 30 caliber (or other) bullet takes; sighting in at 25yds should have you pretty close to dead on at 200yds. At 25 it is still rising at 200, it's falling. Doesn't change the fact that it actually works great!
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Old May 27, 2014, 08:14 PM   #9
dakota.potts
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If you're at 25, stay where you are until you're happy with your groups.

I am not sure if somebody is not properly communicating an idea, but it doesn't make any sense to have your rear leaf sight on the 200m notch... unless perhaps your rifle was shooting low and it was your instructor's way of helping you compensate? Is it possible you mis heard or misunderstood something he was trying to communicate? It's true that a good group should be the a good group no matter the setting, but then why not put it on 600m or 100m or even 2000m? Just something about that's not adding up to me.

Anyways, good progress! I'm finding Mosins are a challenge unto themselves.
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Old May 27, 2014, 08:15 PM   #10
DPris
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I was kinda wondering about that, too.

I had one Mosin that shot low, the others shot/shoot high.

Not to disparage either you or your instructor, but what the gun does at 25 meters elevation-wise doesn't necessarily tell you much about what it'll do at 100 yards.

I'm more concerned about the spread you show at 25 yards.

Again, don't take this as criticism, but that rifle should be able to put 10 holes inside a 2-inch circle, even if the bore has no rifling left & the bullets go in sideways, during a hurricane, if shot off a good rest, at 25 meters.

I know you, yourself, can shoot much better with your 10/22 at that distance.
I've said it before & I'll say it again- I'd stick that Mosin in a corner someplace till you get a bunch more experience with riflery in general.

I know you're passionately wanting to shoot the thing, but it & you are not a good combo right now.
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Old May 27, 2014, 08:15 PM   #11
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Thanks for the compliment!

I plan to do a little deer hunting in the fall and I want to go boar hunting once with it. Other than that it's going to be a fun plinker and hunting tool that I can pass on one day. I sure would have some stories to tell about it, wouldn't I? After all, it is the first gun, and the only at the moment, I've ever bought.
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Old May 27, 2014, 08:16 PM   #12
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Sierra280's explanation makes a lot more sense. Are you saying you sighted in at 25m and set the above target at 200m? That's what I think Iw as getting from the advice also and apologize if that's what you were trying to say.
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Old May 27, 2014, 08:18 PM   #13
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That's the thing, it wasn't a good rest. They weren't even particularly well aimed shots. I was shooting prone, rapid firing, and with the sling around my arm.
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Old May 27, 2014, 08:21 PM   #14
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No, these were shot at 25 meters, my instructor just out of the blue said, set your sights for 200 meters. He said that I should be able to get good groups out to 200 without adjusting sights, once my shots start improving, of course.
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Old May 27, 2014, 08:26 PM   #15
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Mo,
Once again, you're all over the map & getting ahead of yourself.
Shooting rapid-fire from a hasty prone sling-up at 25 meters IS NOT THE BEST WAY TO LEARN THAT RIFLE, or to figure out where it's zeroed at.

Put it in a corner, work on your 10/22 as we've discussed, get your .223 going, learn it, and then re-visit the Mosin with a STRUCTURED APPROACH.

This bouncing around is not helping you.
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Old May 27, 2014, 08:36 PM   #16
Mosin-Marauder
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Well, I'm going to buy a set of tech sights and a GI Sling Soon. Until then, there's really nothing I could practice. The scope is clumsy and counterproductive. My current sling is god-awful. And the sling won't fit the 1" sling mount already on it so I have to some of those. I'll keep looking around. I am looking at either getting a Mossberg AR-15 chambered in .22nd at my local gun store, as it's on sale for $299.99 and it's got adjustable (GOOD at that) peep sights.
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Old May 27, 2014, 08:37 PM   #17
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I have to agree. When I first started shooting, the first rifle I shot was a .308. I couldn't hit jack or shoot more than 10 rounds.

I got a .22 rifle. A CZ452 trainer. I've fired close to 500 rounds through it. I bought my Mosin and when I went to shoot it, I knew the proper technique to hold the rifle and keep it from bucking me around. No flinch and better control. Now I shoot the .308 and it feels like a pussycat and my aim is vastly improved with all rifles.

You are doing great and show way more self-motivation than most other shooters your age (or many other shooters at all). I would advise that maybe you see if you can't find a trainer who is willing to work 1-on-1 with you semi-regularly. They'll be able to diagnose things a lot better than we can and create a solution that works better for you.
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Old May 27, 2014, 09:02 PM   #18
Mosin-Marauder
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Well, It can get a bit discouraging when you're trying the best you can with what you have and it basically amounts to zero progress made.
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Old May 27, 2014, 09:16 PM   #19
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Mo,
Remember our discussions about the 10/22 at 25 yards & 50 yards, with scope?
Then taking the scope off & repeating practice at 25 & 50 yards with the iron sights?
Then moving out to 75 yards?

I'm trying to tell you that you have a long way to go, you're not as far along as you think you are, and that 10/22 can teach you a heckuva lot more before you're ready to move up in caliber.

There most certainly ARE other things you can practice, before you continue to waste time, effort & ammunition on that Mosin.
I know you don't want to hear it, but you're just not ready for it yet & this hit & miss (literally) approach you're taking to learning how to shoot is doing more harm than help.

A sling, at your stage of the game, is not needed.

You have iron sights on your Ruger, learn them.

Peep sights are not an absolute need.

The Mossberg "AR22" is a lower-end plinker among the many .22-caliber AR lookalikes & may or may not hold up over the long run.
The one I worked with ran fine except for some mag-related problems with the extended one.
I've heard reports from others with lesser experiences.

It will not do as well for as long as your 10/22 will.
If you have to have an aperture sight, you can find one for your Ruger.
If you have to have a higher-cap mag, same.
The irons already on your Ruger will, if you learn them, translate better to your Mosin eventually, than an aperture, because the Mosin doesn't have an aperture.

I told you before I've shot one of my Mosins into three holes under an inch at 100 yards, with the standard sights on it.
You learn Notch & Post on your Ruger, you can transfer that ability to your Mosin.

You're motivated, I'll grant you that, but you're also impatient & that is not doing you any good at all.

Denis
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Old May 27, 2014, 09:30 PM   #20
Mosin-Marauder
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Sorry. I know I can get a bit impatient sometimes. I apologize for my pig-headed stubbornness as well. I'll remove the scope on the 10/22. Also, 1 more question. The 10/22s rear sight has these little screws on them. Is that to adjust for elevation? Is there anyway to adjust the sights for windage? Thanks for you help. I'll be retiring Old Yardstick for the time being. Might even trade it in for a better rifle, who knows.
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Old May 27, 2014, 09:38 PM   #21
DPris
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Since I have no idea which 10/22 & which sights you have, hard to answer.
Picture?
Denis
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Old May 27, 2014, 09:42 PM   #22
dakota.potts
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I disagree that you haven't made progress. You've opened up to new paradigms you wouldn't have before. You've sought out instruction and got feedback from experienced teachers. Your groups have improved and you've singled out bad habits of your shooting. You've researched lots of different firearms types and made decisions based on pros and cons of each, learning what's good for you along the way.

Two words of advice for you (and then a lot more)

Don't try to buy your problems away. You've considered an awful lot of firearms. That's OK. We love firearms. I've done the same with a godawful amount of guns and bass guitars. Just make sure you're not looking at or buying guns as a means to practice at this point. What you have should do you great.

Don't be too eager to jump on the big guns. Set up a target at 25 yards and use the iron sights on your Ruger. Put it on a bipod or bags benchrested or prone if you have to. Focus on breathing and trigger pull and shoot 5 shot groups. At 25 yards, you should be able to shoot them into a group the size of a half dollar without too much struggle. The gun itself shouldn't need to be upgraded until you're shooting consistent half inch groups at 25 yards, which translates to 2 inch groups at 100 yards. Even then you could probably squeeze some out of the ruger. Until the point you can get 5 shots into a group at least the size of a quarter to a half dollar, any other gun will likely result in frustration for you, as you're seeing.

The Mosin is not an easy gun to group with in any regard. It bucks like a mule. Trigger pull can be horrible (I got lucky on mine). Sights are crude and often not sighted in at distances people target shoot at. It's hard to follow through and see a shot because recoil is bouncing you off your line of sight. No trigger return also hurts follow through to some extent.

Any problems you have grouping with an easy to control rifle like the .22 will be amplified on a bigger caliber, especially in a crude gun with poor ergonomics. I intend to put my Mosin away myself until I can get better groups out of my .22. I know my breathing and trigger control are not where they need to be.

Keep shooting for the love of shooting. Don't be afraid to shoot the Mosin. Destroy milk jugs if you want. Shoot at paper targets. Just remember to learn your fundamentals if you want to increase your shooting skills.

A bit off topic, I joined my first serious skills-based forum when I was 14. It was bass guitar. I remember getting a lot of the same comments about being mature and well-spoken. Internet forums are great because you will generally be accepted for who you are as long as you are respectful and well spoken. It gives you a chance to be on a level playing field with people you may not consider peers. The level of expertise, science, repetition, passion etc. given off by those around here may be different than what you're used to with peers or friends and family who are casual shooters. We are all very passionate about what we do and it shows in our need to improve. You have it too. You may find that being treated as a member of this group means you are treated a little differently than in other relationships, and that's as a member who is trying to improve as all of us. What you may see as being hard on you, frustrating, elitist, etc. is just part of that drive to share information. We want to see you succeed because simply by signing up here we sense that you want to succeed and we tend to push you in ways that others don't. I don't mean to speak for you, but these are the feelings I remember having and the frustrations I had and hope that it may help you feel like I am not picking you apart for your skills or enthusiasm. Maybe it's unwarranted, I don't know.

We all wish you the best of luck in reaching your goals.
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Old May 27, 2014, 09:46 PM   #23
Sierra280
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Get the tech sights and instead of a new gun, consider some upgrades for that 10/22; target barrels aren't that much. I got the interchangeable apertures, nice feature.

My first gun was a Remington 581, still have it, still love it.

Also, like others on TFL, I'm surprised to see a young person so interested in shooting, it's great!! If you need a real sling, I'd be happy to send you an old one I have. It's a 'Rubanks Pioneer Leather' GI style sling. It's a little short for me, plus it gives me an excuse to give the wife when I order a Turner Saddlery white feather sling. (And maybe you'll buy my book when you get older; it's in my signature)---sorry for the shameless plug. If you PM me your mailing address I'll send it out Friday, if you are interested.




Edit--as Dakota Potts said, work on fundamentals. That being said; an older gentleman once told me 'son, you can buy your way into the bullseye.' It has a grain of truth to it.

Last edited by Sierra280; May 27, 2014 at 09:58 PM.
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Old May 27, 2014, 10:04 PM   #24
Mosin-Marauder
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Denis, here's a picture of the sights. Sorry for the dark photo, had just taken the scope off and was getting a feel for the irons.

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Old May 28, 2014, 12:32 AM   #25
DPris
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The screws are used in adjusting for elevation.
Loosen them (carefully, with the correctly-sized screwdriver blade to avoid buggering the screw heads), just enough to allow the notch plate to move up or down as needed for elevation corrections.
Tighten them up after moving the plate.

Shoot, check for POA/POI, repeat as necessary.

Don't back them all the way out unless you want to change the notch, you may never find them again & they're tiny and hard to get started in the threaded holes again.

You can see there are two different configuration notches, one on top of the movable plate & one on the bottom.
That gives you two slightly different sight pictures.

Up to you which one you want to use.
Decide to use the bottom notch, remove screws, rotate the bottom notch up, replace plate in sight, re-install screws, tighten them down.

The diamond I find distracting & irritating & blacken out on any gun I acquire that has it.
That's just me.

The rear sight is CAREFULLY & LIGHTLY tapped to either side in its dovetail in the barrel to adjust for windage.
Tap from left to right to move bullet impact TO THE RIGHT on target.
Tap right to left to move bullet impact TO THE LEFT on target.

If you do this, use a brass or nylon punch with a small enough tip to place it on the BASE of the hinged sight. Tap that punch lightly with a small hammer, gun resting on a fairly solid surface. Best to have your Dad, or some other body, hold the gun still while you tap on it, if you don't have some sort of vice setup.

If you whack away on the top part of the sight, you can bend or break it.
If you use a steel punch, you can dent the base and/or mar the bluing.

I put a strip of masking tape crosswise over the top of the barrel right touching the front of the sight base, and use a pen to make a very small witness mark on it directly in front of some prominent part of the base. If there's a witness mark of any sort on the front of the base, the tape witness mark goes right in front of it.

If not, I'll put the tape witness mark right in front of one (sometimes both) corners of the base.

The purpose of the witness mark on the tape is to provide a reference point to show you if, and how much, you moved the sight base during your tapping.
Also to show a return point, if you for some reason want to put it back just as it was when you started out.

Without the witness mark, you can't tell visually quite as easily how far you've moved the base.

Don't be afraid to ask more questions if that wasn't clear.
Denis
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