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Old November 6, 2011, 12:31 PM   #1
Steelers252006
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Scenario

My wife asked me this yesterday, and I forgot to run it by the CCW instructor when I saw him at the gun show. I know the three basic rules to take in to account of the legalities of brandishing your firearm are, 1, am I somewhere I'm allowed to be, 2, do I fear I'm in a dire situation, and, 3, did I start the confrontation.

You have to take these in to account obviously. You cannot start a fight with some guy, he comes at you, and then you shoot him. You cannot walk on someone's private property, they came at you, and then shoot them. You canot be arguing with someone 10 feet away, get mad 'cause they call you a sissy boy, and just shoot them. Rule of thumb is to get as far away as you can and call the police, period.

What about this one? Let's say I'm in parking lot with my wife, and a guy runs by and grabs her purse that has her wallet with a thousand bucks and a fiream in the purse just for example. Point is there's a weapon and monetary value there. But even if not, I yell stop and chase the guy. I assume you cannot shoot him to get the purse back? What if you tracked him and he turns to whack you? You're pursuing him, not the other way around. This to me is a little bit of a "Gray" area. I would assume by law you COULD NOT pull your firearm here as you are not in immediate danger. I akin this, however, to someone busting down your front door, you see him, he grabs your wallet off the counter and hauls tail. Can you chase after him with your gun? Two different scenarios, but I'm curious to see what others think.
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Old November 6, 2011, 12:32 PM   #2
Steelers252006
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2 was worded wrong. Do I fear for my life would be the proper way to state that, i.e, couple of punks walking up to you getting ready to stab you and rob you. Thanks.
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Old November 6, 2011, 12:33 PM   #3
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And, sorry, I know I posted this in the wrong spot. I'll try not to let that happen again.
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Old November 6, 2011, 12:41 PM   #4
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Huh?
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Old November 6, 2011, 12:50 PM   #5
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In general your life has to be in danger. I would call the police and hold the bad guy until the police arrive once they are cornered. The presence of your wife's purse etc would be evidence enough to justify your pursuit as far as I'm concerned.
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Old November 6, 2011, 01:12 PM   #6
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What if the bad guy did not stop, and you could not hold him there? Then he can just take off with your stuff right in front of you, and you're powerless to do anything about it?
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Old November 6, 2011, 01:14 PM   #7
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The question my wife asked me, sorry about the convoluted question, was could you pull the gun if someone robbed you and took off real quick, such as grabbing her purse and running. I would assume NO, but I wanted to see what others thought.
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Old November 6, 2011, 01:15 PM   #8
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Ability, Opportunity, and Jeopardy need to be proven if you use lethal force. This is the case in almost all jurisdictions; if you can prove all three, you are set.

Ability means your attacker has the ability to cause you death or grave bodily harm. They are holding a gun, knife, or other weapon. They are a martial artist and you are not. There are three of them and one of you. They are a man and you are a woman. Etc.

Opportunity means they have the capability of using the ability against you. They have a gun and are close to you with no cover in between. They have a knife and are very close to you. Opportunity does not exist if they are running away with a purse, for example, or if someone else is holding them down.

Jeopardy means you are in fear for your life. They could be holding a loaded gun 10 feet in front of you, but if they aren't looking at you, or are holding their hands up in surrender, you do not have jeopardy. Many people say being in fear for your life is enough, but that's not the case. You could be walking at night by yourself and a "shady" character approaches you, but does not exhibit either of the above, for example.

If you can prove all three of these things to a jury, you will most likely be OK anywhere in the United States. Two of the three aren't enough.

This was paraphrased from Kathy Jackson (pax) and Mark Walters excellent book Letters from Armed America. I highly recommend you pick it up as it will answer a lot of questions like this.

Also check this out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Co...per_Color_Code

You should always be in condition yellow when carrying.
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Old November 6, 2011, 01:28 PM   #9
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Quote:
..., I yell stop and chase the guy.
No.
You do not chase the guy.


Here's why....

1) There's nothing in the purse that cannot be replaced.

2) He might be leading you in to a trap where his friends are waiting to waylay you....
You almost have him, he turns a corner, you turn the corner and "BAM", lights out.

3) He might be luring you away from your wife, leaving her to the mercy of his friends....
You chase him, he ditches the purse and gets away, you recover the purse and return only to find your wife missing.


BTW, this illustrates why women should not carry their handgun in their purse.
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Old November 6, 2011, 01:32 PM   #10
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Complicated question.

Some states have (i think) different rules based just on a firearm being stolen.

Others allow lethal force to stop felonies.

In other places lethal force is allowed to stop someone who has committed a *violent* felony.

Then, you have the complications of Penal Code versus case law.

Complex question.
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Old November 6, 2011, 01:52 PM   #11
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What if the bad guy did not stop, and you could not hold him there? Then he can just take off with your stuff right in front of you, and you're powerless to do anything about it?
Lawful Lethal force would not be justified, you and your loved one are not in immediate life or death situation when the BG is running away.

Now, if you can prove he started a running gun battle ????

Your not a police officer, so if you draw down on a guy your focus should only be for your escape to safety, not to prone him out and hold for the calvary. You can order him to do so, but if he runs let him.

Same goes if you shoot someone you need to get to safety,until the calvary arrives. You never approach the BG your attempts at helping are your calls to police
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Old November 6, 2011, 01:57 PM   #12
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In my state, you could present your weapon during a robbery as lethal force is allowed to be used for a forcible felony such as robbery, but once the robbery is over and perp is leaving, your rights end.

Last edited by shootniron; November 6, 2011 at 04:04 PM.
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Old November 6, 2011, 03:40 PM   #13
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All good points. I definitely need to look further in to it. Not saying it will ever happen mind you but what if...
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Old November 6, 2011, 03:46 PM   #14
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Always keep in mind the one simple rule that shooting someone is almost always best avoided.

Yes, sometimes, for any number of reasons, it needs to be done.

But you really want to ask yourself, does it REALLY need to be done.

Fact is, it's almost certain to dramatically screw up your life for a good long while. Whether it be money, stress, court, whatever.

The aftermath is almost certain to severely suck. Avoid it at all costs, but a very few... The life of you and yours and possibly other innocents. Even dealing with other innocents can get ugly.

Shooting someone is going to suck. Big time. Avoid it when possible.
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Old November 6, 2011, 03:52 PM   #15
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Check with a knowledgeable and qualified attorney in your area. Rules are different for each state, and there may be other differences by county or municipality.
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Old November 7, 2011, 12:37 AM   #16
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The parking lot scenario where a bad guy (BG) grabs your wife’s purse and runs off with it…

A very, very similar situation recently occurred in Minneapolis. BG hits 50+ year old woman with his handgun and runs off with her purse. A CCW sees the action and goes after the BG, catches him and they have a confrontation. The BG threatens the CCW and the CCW shoots and kills the BG. The case hung on the fence for a while and last I heard the authorities were NOT going to charge the CCW.

Please note: the CCW did NOT shoot the BG because he had stolen a purse. He shot the BG because the BG threatened his life.

It’s been discussed a lot. Read about it here:
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=466285

Note: IMhO it’s very likely in a different city the legal results might have been different.
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Old November 7, 2011, 01:13 AM   #17
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Short answer: in the situation you described, simply do not chase the purse snatcher.

Long answer: forcibly confronting someone over property, whether you have a weapon or not, is a bad idea. By doing so, you put your own safety, and possibly the safety of others, in jeopardy unnecessarily. If a thief grabs something and runs away, chances are he's only interested in what he grabbed and not in doing physical harm to anyone. By chasing the thief, you run a risk of backing him into a corner to where he feels that he has no choice but to fight his way out. The way I look at it, it is the job of the police to pursue and subdue thieves, not mine and if I wanted to chase thieves I'd become a police officer.

Now, some will say that you are obligated to pursue the thief in he scenario you describe because you have, in effect, provided him with a weapon that he may use to do harm upon others. I don't really buy that either. In the situation you describe, the purse snatcher has no way of knowing that there is a weapon inside the purse. This tells me that the thief is after money, credit cards, cell phones, prescription drugs, or other valuable items that are commonly carried in ladies' purses. I have no reason to believe that he intends to do harm upon others with the gun he just stole because he doesn't even know that he stole it yet. My thought on the matter is that if you're concerned about having a weapon stolen, you should probably be looking for the most secure means of carry available and off-body carry is not it.
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Old November 7, 2011, 03:33 AM   #18
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to the OP

you think that is a gray area? Try a college student carrying on his weekend at a bar(legally OR even not at a bar but close by), shooting another agressor college student(young adult)

...been a long time since my college days, but I'm glad I didn't carry in that gray area

your answer depends on the state and laws But actually doesn't if this guy did in fact try to 'kill' you(defining your terminology):

Quote:
...tracked him and he turns to whack you
You have a right to defend yourself, and this would meet the criteria
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Old November 7, 2011, 03:41 AM   #19
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peacefulgary

where do you draw the line:

would've you have a 2million dollar lottery ticket in your wife's purse?

would've you have anitvenom for a snakebite and are heading to your bro-in-law's?

ourageous examples? no...two examples of an infinite amount that could ring true.

whether he can chase or not isn't based on whether he has a gun. Therefore, he is allowed to chase. I get your point, property isn't as important as your life and ambushes happen(Sioux Indians used this tactic to Perfection)...amubush might be wrong word(going by your example), but the Siouz would show up and let you chase(basically gave you a rope and let you hang yourself).

If you chase and this person turns to "whack" you, you are justified to shoot otherwise head off with the grim reaper for an early unplanned, impromtu dinner...
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Old November 7, 2011, 03:46 AM   #20
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peetzakilla

Quote:
Complex question
doesn't change the fact that you have the right to pursue right or wrong, stupid or smart:

no law states you do not have the right to chase a thief, and no law states that, 'well you can chase a thief but only if you have no firearm'.

the main, first issue(even though there might be others answered/decided as well in the aftermath when everything is sorted out) is that this man can defend himself with lethal force if this burglar turns and tries to 'whack' him which is a very defining term.

The OP said nothing about trying to shoot this guy in the back, raising and pointing a gun while chasing the perp, etc, etc. He is a citizen carrying a CCW in self-defense who happens to be chasing a robber for whatever reason: too much testosterone, 2 million dollar lottery ticket, his manhood, instinct, and so-on(all rather pointless examples I know but being a defense lawyer would be fun//sometimes//)
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Old November 7, 2011, 08:55 AM   #21
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Quote:
What about this one? Let's say I'm in parking lot with my wife, and a guy runs by and grabs her purse that has her wallet with a thousand bucks and a fiream in the purse just for example.
Quote:
someone busting down your front door, you see him, he grabs your wallet off the counter and hauls tail.
In either case, I would be tempted to pursue the perp, and I would holler for him to stop, hoping that he did. I would try to "hold" him until the police got there. The best liklihood is these are just opportunistic thugs, . . . looking for a fast score, . . . but I would be very careful in the pursuit not to be lured into an ambush if I could help it.

Hopefully, in either case my wife would be on the phone to 911.

I WOULD NOT SHOOT HIM until as previously posted, he shows the ability, predisposition, and an attempt of some sort against my life/limb.

Guns and cash are replaceable, my time spent in jail is not.

I could not pursue much though as I am an old geezer, and much beyond the first 100 yds, . . . he is probably long out of my range and gotten away.

And, . . . no, . . . I would not pull my hand gun out in an attempt to brandish or threaten him into submission while running after him. A local policeman or another CCW person may see me as the bad guy and take action, . . . action that would hurt me.

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Old November 7, 2011, 10:28 AM   #22
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Quote:
where do you draw the line:

would've you have a 2million dollar lottery ticket in your wife's purse?

would've you have anitvenom for a snakebite and are heading to your bro-in-law's?

ourageous examples? no...two examples of an infinite amount that could ring true.
And if he leads you in to an ambush, or lures your away from your wife....

Then you're still out the 2 million, your brother-in-law is still dying of snake bite, and now you're layed out cold bleeding in an alley (now relieved of your own wallet, watch, ring, and pistol too).


Or you got your 2 million ticket back, and the anti-venom, and your wife's pistol, but now your wife is missing and is on her way toward being sold in to white slavery, to be turned in to a junkie prostitute.


How exactly did this make things better?
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Old November 7, 2011, 02:02 PM   #23
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Quote:
Always keep in mind the one simple rule that shooting someone is almost always best avoided.

Yes, sometimes, for any number of reasons, it needs to be done.

But you really want to ask yourself, does it REALLY need to be done.

Fact is, it's almost certain to dramatically screw up your life for a good long while. Whether it be money, stress, court, whatever.

The aftermath is almost certain to severely suck. Avoid it at all costs, but a very few... The life of you and yours and possibly other innocents. Even dealing with other innocents can get ugly.

Shooting someone is going to suck. Big time. Avoid it when possible.
This is absolutely the case IF the city decides to prosecute you. In the vast majority of cases I have read about in which the CHL carrier was clearly in the right, they did not file charges, and said life was NOT screwed up.

This is why its important to know the laws of your state (or wherever you are located at the moment) inside and out so you can do the lawyer thing on the spot in the moment. If there is any grey area you might experience the above, but if you are 100% in the right, chances are you won't have to go through a long arduous legal battle.

Of course emotional/stress side effects will still be present, but I don't think that was the main point.
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Old November 7, 2011, 05:38 PM   #24
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So could you look at it logically in this way: The guy that grabs your wife's purse was "starting" the conflict, not you. Therefore you are chasing after him, but if he turns around to slug you, you chasing him has no consquential bearing on his action to hit you as he "started" the fight in the first place? That shooting him there would be okay? OR would chasing him turn YOU in to the aggressor now, and him turning around to hit you is just him using "self-defense" against you now??
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Old November 8, 2011, 07:10 AM   #25
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QUOTE: Steelers

The question my wife asked me, sorry about the convoluted question, was could you pull the gun if someone robbed you and took off real quick, such as grabbing her purse and running. I would assume NO, but I wanted to see what others thought.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Under the deadly force laws in Texas, you would be justified in shooting them. You do not have to outrun them, catch them and take a chance in a scuffle of them taking your guns from you and using them on you. Other States may be different. So if someone grabs my wallet, which might contain $500 to $700 at times, and my debit cards, drivers license, CWP
I would use deadly force to stop their escape. Who knows how much damage from identity theft you might incur if they escape with the cards, and your identification. I think the same would apply in neighboring states to Texas. I think though that in Lousiana one must be inside the vehicle to stop the carjacker, which is different from Texas. I just make the assumption if I have to use deadly force, I will have to incur the legal expense to defend it under the Texas Castle Doctrine.
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