It's Only 3 Shots but...

**Brian Pfleuger** · November 3, 2011, 03:46 PM

Well, I haven't been able to shoot much this year and this is the first time I've been at a real range with real benches in a LOOONG time....

Gun still shoots, I guess.

100 yards, .204 Ruger, 32gr V-Max, 28.0gr Benchmark.... seems like 1/2" too me.

Jim243 · November 3, 2011, 04:11 PM

Actually your group is 0.418 MOA with an average distance from center of 0.175 inch, done on On-Target.

Now we need to get you to use some H-335 and get you down to 0.321 MOA (LOL)

Jim

spacecoast · November 3, 2011, 04:29 PM

Well you know, you really have to shoot a 5-shot group to know for sure

**Brian Pfleuger** · November 3, 2011, 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpaceCoast

Well you know, you really have to shoot a 5-shot group to know for sure

I think it's 10 actually.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jum243

Now we need to get you to use some H-335 and get you down to 0.321 MOA

Thanks, but Benchmark and H335 both are too slow (MV).

I'm going to try W748 next year. QuickLoad predicts I can get 4,200 fps with that. Hopefully it's accurate. It works great in 22-250.

CPTMurdoc30 · November 3, 2011, 04:35 PM

I prefer 1 shot groups myself...

**Brian Pfleuger** · November 3, 2011, 04:38 PM

Oh, and it was technically 103 yards, so my MOA is a bit less.

HiBC · November 3, 2011, 04:42 PM

I fully understand and accept the idea that to claim a firearm /shooter is making xxxMOA groups...it has to be apples to apples and 3 shot groups do not compare to 5 shot,7 shot,10 shot groups.

Ammo is expensive,barrels do wear out ,and most of us only have so much time at the range.

I typically get my business done with 3 shot groups.Initial sighting in,I'll use one or two.

Mr P,thats a nice 3 shot group.Its an honest post.I bet you got a grin walking up to the target!

You can count on,every time someone posts a 3 shot,someone else will point out it is not a 5 shot.So what?
It is what it is.

**Brian Pfleuger** · November 3, 2011, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HiBC

I bet you got a grin walking up to the target!

Actually I was a little scared.

I knew the first two were good and I told myself I wasn't going to look until I go walked up after the 3rd. Fortunately, 1 and 2 were the high and low, so 3 actually didn't effect the the group.

It's so nice to shoot with a real bench and a real rest. I don't need to know what I can do... which is not a lot. I want to know what my handloads and gun can do, which is better than I can.

Next time I go, it's 300!

lll Otto lll · November 3, 2011, 05:48 PM

LOL, don't post that target at Sniper's Hide or they'll delete it.

Their rules: "No 3 hole groups are accepted and the target must me shown in it's entirety.
Inside 300 yards you must post at least (4) 5 shot groups that can be identified on target or you may post (1) 10 shot group for record. I will also accept (6) 3 shot groups on the same paper or target."

Yeah, I know this isn't SnipersHide but I share the same sentiments that a single 3 hole group means very little.

wingman · November 3, 2011, 06:07 PM

Quote:

Yeah, I know this isn't SnipersHide but I share the same sentiments that a single 3 hole group means very little.

It would only mean nothing if the group was 2.0.

CPTMurdoc30 · November 3, 2011, 09:04 PM

What is the point or 3, 5, 10 or 300 shot groups?

If it is a hunting rifle of any type there is only one shot that counts. That is the cold bore shot. That is unless you are doing high volume shooting like ground squirrels or P dogs.

How many shots and you take at a deer? If you have to take over 2 at the MAX you SUCK and you should put your guns away.

So in my eyes 3 shots are just as good or better than 5 or 10 shot groups.

If putting 3 bullets into a target at 100 yards and they are all touching I am saying that is a decent shooting rifle.

NUKE HUNTER · November 3, 2011, 09:12 PM

thats nice shooting, i'd be happy with that after a loooong break.
feels good dont it?

**Brian Pfleuger** · November 3, 2011, 09:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lll Otto lll

LOL, don't post that target at Sniper's Hide or they'll delete it.

Their rules: "No 3 hole groups are accepted and the target must me shown in it's entirety.
Inside 300 yards you must post at least (4) 5 shot groups that can be identified on target or you may post (1) 10 shot group for record. I will also accept (6) 3 shot groups on the same paper or target."

Yeah, I know this isn't SnipersHide but I share the same sentiments that a single 3 hole group means very little.

I share the same sentiment but I'm not trying to win any prizes... and I was out of ammo.

It is nice to shoot some. Life has been rather stressful of late and shooting helps me relax a little.
I shot the Encore handgun too but the scope is still slipping. Time for some lock-tite. I replaced the fixed objective 2-7 scope with an adjustable 3-12. Apparently the extra weight is more than the rings can hold.

Jim243 · November 3, 2011, 09:50 PM

Quote:

Yeah, I know this isn't SnipersHide but I share the same sentiments that a single 3 hole group means very little.

Peetza forgive me for butting in, but Otto, stuff it who cares what another forum thinks is good or bad. Peetza, that was nice shooting and a good group, congrats.

Jim

mrawesome22 · November 3, 2011, 10:09 PM

peetza, do they give tours at the Ilion plant, and if so, have you taken it?

**Brian Pfleuger** · November 3, 2011, 10:13 PM

I'm not sure exactly.... There's a museum but I don't know if you can tour the factory. Sadly, I've never been there... Even though I've spent my whole life with 90 miles of the place.

mrawesome22 · November 3, 2011, 10:19 PM

Sounds like you have your weekend plans then

**Brian Pfleuger** · November 3, 2011, 10:22 PM

I wish! We have some sort of a "North Pole" trip in December.... We'll be within 10 miles or so. Maybe I can make it then.

**Brian Pfleuger** · November 4, 2011, 07:34 PM

I downloaded OnTarget... I have to take exception to your measurement Jim.

Based on this:

OnTarget says .368 MOA, .168" to center.

I could be wrong... I never use OnTarget, though it's pretty awesome. Regardless, I was very happy just to be able to shoot yesterday.

lamarw · November 4, 2011, 09:30 PM

The only important factor is whether you are personally satisfied with the three shot results or not. Are you?

dahermit · November 4, 2011, 09:40 PM

Quote:

You can count on,every time someone posts a 3 shot,someone else will point out it is not a 5 shot.So what?
It is what it is.

So what? It is a fact that if you are firing an accurate rifle, there is a high probability that the group is the result of pure chance. In other words, if he shot a three shot group again, it would not be that good or even not good at all (a poor group). The more accurate the rifle, the more likely it will print a good group that is not representative of the rifle's or shooters capability. That is why five shot groups (and sometimes ten shot groups), are the standard in all bench rest competition. The reason why the site that prohibits posting of three shot groups, could be because they get tired of explaining it and the statistical probability involved.
Maybe this will give you a differnt persepective:
http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...am#post4795337

TXGunNut · November 4, 2011, 09:45 PM

Nice shooting, welcome back to sub-MOA town!

I feel a 3-shot group is valid for a rifle and load that has proven itself to be sub-MOA. I feel it's also valid for a hard-kicking rifle (Marlin Guide Gun) or pistol (like my .35 Rem T/C Contender). When I'm developing loads for tamer rifles I like to shoot two five-shot groups and will consider them as a 10-shot group. And quite frankly I don't care if a sniper wannabe believes me or not. I can fake a one-ragged-hole group and claim it was shot at 300 yds on a range that faces due south with a 37mph 70 degree crosswind but I really don't care that much about impressing folks. IF I post a group it's likely to be embarrassing or sub-par but I'm a seasoned comp shooter, I've damn sure been embarrassed before!

CrustyFN · November 4, 2011, 09:46 PM

That's a good group in my book any day, nice shooting.

**Brian Pfleuger** · November 4, 2011, 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lamarw

The only important factor is whether you are personally satisfied with the three shot results or not. Are you?

Not really. Not one 3 shot group anyway. However, this gun and load has proven itself over time. I have used this exact load for over a year, killed a woodchuck at 369 yards, shot many 1/2-3/4 MOA 3 shot groups at 100 yards and not a single group OVER 3/4, shot a 3 shot group at 410 yards that was right at 3 inches and shot a 3 shot group at 296 yards in 20 mph crosswind that was about 3 inches.

However, NONE of those groups or shots were under any conditions remotely approaching ideal. Those were in a field, with no rear rest and a bipod up front.

Next time, maybe I'll go for more. Frankly, the biggest reason I usually stop at 3 is that I get bored waiting for the barrel to cool in between shots. Even with this group I only waited 2 or 3 minutes and shot my Encore in between.

I guess the obvious solution is to get enough guns that I can shoot one every minute and still get 10 minutes between shots.

TXGunNut · November 4, 2011, 10:46 PM

Don't sell the bipod short. I've done some of my best shooting off a bipod up front and an offhand fist under the buttstock. Some rifles just don't like sandbags.

November 3, 2011, 03:46 PM	#1
Brian Pfleuger Staff Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Central, Southern NY, USA Posts: 14,662	It's Only 3 Shots but... Well, I haven't been able to shoot much this year and this is the first time I've been at a real range with real benches in a LOOONG time.... Gun still shoots, I guess. 100 yards, .204 Ruger, 32gr V-Max, 28.0gr Benchmark.... seems like 1/2" too me.

November 3, 2011, 04:11 PM	#2
Jim243 Senior Member Join Date: January 6, 2009 Posts: 3,614	Actually your group is 0.418 MOA with an average distance from center of 0.175 inch, done on On-Target. Now we need to get you to use some H-335 and get you down to 0.321 MOA (LOL) Jim __________________ Si vis pacem, para bellum Last edited by Jim243; November 3, 2011 at 04:19 PM.

November 3, 2011, 04:29 PM	#3
spacecoast Senior Member Join Date: October 14, 2009 Location: Sunshine and Keystone States Posts: 3,465	Well you know, you really have to shoot a 5-shot group to know for sure __________________ My guns include S&W and Colt revolvers, Colt and Ruger pistols, Remington 870 shotgun, Henry and Marlin .22LR rifles, Hi-Point 9mm carbine and Lancaster Arms AK. I reload handgun rounds with a Lee hand press, over 18K rounds since Nov. 2009 with nary a squib nor kaboom.

November 3, 2011, 04:35 PM	#5
CPTMurdoc30 Senior Member Join Date: February 27, 2008 Location: Stafford VA Posts: 969	I prefer 1 shot groups myself... __________________ Solving Virginia's Ground Hog problems 50gr at a time.....

November 3, 2011, 04:38 PM	#6
Brian Pfleuger Staff Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Central, Southern NY, USA Posts: 14,662	Oh, and it was technically 103 yards, so my MOA is a bit less. __________________ Still happily answering to the call-sign Peetza. --- You do not HAVE a soul. You ARE a soul. You HAVE a body. ----- He is no fool who gives what he can not keep to gain what he can not lose. -Jim Eliott, paraphrasing Philip Henry.

November 3, 2011, 04:42 PM	#7
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 3,057	I fully understand and accept the idea that to claim a firearm /shooter is making xxxMOA groups...it has to be apples to apples and 3 shot groups do not compare to 5 shot,7 shot,10 shot groups. Ammo is expensive,barrels do wear out ,and most of us only have so much time at the range. I typically get my business done with 3 shot groups.Initial sighting in,I'll use one or two. Mr P,thats a nice 3 shot group.Its an honest post.I bet you got a grin walking up to the target! You can count on,every time someone posts a 3 shot,someone else will point out it is not a 5 shot.So what? It is what it is.

November 3, 2011, 05:48 PM	#9
lll Otto lll Senior Member Join Date: June 1, 2008 Location: Lone Star State Posts: 154	LOL, don't post that target at Sniper's Hide or they'll delete it. Their rules: "No 3 hole groups are accepted and the target must me shown in it's entirety. Inside 300 yards you must post at least (4) 5 shot groups that can be identified on target or you may post (1) 10 shot group for record. I will also accept (6) 3 shot groups on the same paper or target." Yeah, I know this isn't SnipersHide but I share the same sentiments that a single 3 hole group means very little.

November 3, 2011, 09:04 PM	#11
CPTMurdoc30 Senior Member Join Date: February 27, 2008 Location: Stafford VA Posts: 969	What is the point or 3, 5, 10 or 300 shot groups? If it is a hunting rifle of any type there is only one shot that counts. That is the cold bore shot. That is unless you are doing high volume shooting like ground squirrels or P dogs. How many shots and you take at a deer? If you have to take over 2 at the MAX you SUCK and you should put your guns away. So in my eyes 3 shots are just as good or better than 5 or 10 shot groups. If putting 3 bullets into a target at 100 yards and they are all touching I am saying that is a decent shooting rifle. __________________ Solving Virginia's Ground Hog problems 50gr at a time.....

November 3, 2011, 09:12 PM	#12
NUKE HUNTER Member Join Date: August 22, 2009 Location: dutchess county, new york Posts: 62	thats nice shooting, i'd be happy with that after a loooong break. feels good dont it?

November 3, 2011, 10:09 PM	#15
mrawesome22 Senior Member Join Date: November 9, 2005 Location: Ohio, Appalachia's foothills. Posts: 3,779	peetza, do they give tours at the Ilion plant, and if so, have you taken it? Last edited by mrawesome22; November 3, 2011 at 10:11 PM. Reason: spellering

November 3, 2011, 10:13 PM	#16
Brian Pfleuger Staff Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Central, Southern NY, USA Posts: 14,662	I'm not sure exactly.... There's a museum but I don't know if you can tour the factory. Sadly, I've never been there... Even though I've spent my whole life with 90 miles of the place.

November 3, 2011, 10:19 PM	#17
mrawesome22 Senior Member Join Date: November 9, 2005 Location: Ohio, Appalachia's foothills. Posts: 3,779	Sounds like you have your weekend plans then

November 3, 2011, 10:22 PM	#18
Brian Pfleuger Staff Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Central, Southern NY, USA Posts: 14,662	I wish! We have some sort of a "North Pole" trip in December.... We'll be within 10 miles or so. Maybe I can make it then.

November 4, 2011, 09:30 PM	#20
lamarw Senior Member Join Date: April 12, 2010 Location: Lake Martin, AL Posts: 1,287	The only important factor is whether you are personally satisfied with the three shot results or not. Are you?

November 4, 2011, 09:45 PM	#22
TXGunNut Senior Member Join Date: January 16, 2010 Location: If you have to ask... Posts: 2,843	Nice shooting, welcome back to sub-MOA town! I feel a 3-shot group is valid for a rifle and load that has proven itself to be sub-MOA. I feel it's also valid for a hard-kicking rifle (Marlin Guide Gun) or pistol (like my .35 Rem T/C Contender). When I'm developing loads for tamer rifles I like to shoot two five-shot groups and will consider them as a 10-shot group. And quite frankly I don't care if a sniper wannabe believes me or not. I can fake a one-ragged-hole group and claim it was shot at 300 yds on a range that faces due south with a 37mph 70 degree crosswind but I really don't care that much about impressing folks. IF I post a group it's likely to be embarrassing or sub-par but I'm a seasoned comp shooter, I've damn sure been embarrassed before! __________________ Life Member NRA, TSRA Smokeless powder is a passing fad! -Steve Garbe I hate rude behavior in a man. I won't tolerate it. -Woodrow F. Call Lonesome Dove My favorite recipes start out with a handful of used wheelweights.

November 4, 2011, 09:46 PM	#23
CrustyFN Senior Member Join Date: June 4, 2006 Location: West Virginia Posts: 2,213	That's a good group in my book any day, nice shooting. __________________ I don't ever remember being absent minded.

November 4, 2011, 10:46 PM	#25
TXGunNut Senior Member Join Date: January 16, 2010 Location: If you have to ask... Posts: 2,843	Don't sell the bipod short. I've done some of my best shooting off a bipod up front and an offhand fist under the buttstock. Some rifles just don't like sandbags. __________________ Life Member NRA, TSRA Smokeless powder is a passing fad! -Steve Garbe I hate rude behavior in a man. I won't tolerate it. -Woodrow F. Call Lonesome Dove My favorite recipes start out with a handful of used wheelweights.