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Old November 5, 2011, 07:36 AM   #26
Pilot
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Anytime I have carried my Browning Hi Power it has been cocked and locked. Practice with it, and get a good holster.
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Old November 5, 2011, 07:47 AM   #27
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Remember that the original Browning design for what became the 1911 didn't have a grip safety either. If my memory serves me it was added at the request of the cavalry to make it safer from AD when in a holster and bouncing at full gallop with only the thumb safety.
No , that's why the thumb safety was added. The 1905 had neither , the 1907 and the 1910 , the 1911s direct predecessor , had a grip safety , but no thumb safety. The thumb safety was added to the final version of the 1911 at the insistance of Cavalry officers so a mounted trooper could safe the weapon temporarily as the 1910 holster could not be closed with the hammer cocked. After stopping his horse , a trooper could then lower the hammer with the pistol pointed in a safe direction. This is proof that John Browning did NOT design the 1911 to be cocked & locked.

The 1910 , no thumb safety.

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Old November 5, 2011, 09:45 AM   #28
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That's not exactly accurate either. I have a book (Edward Ezell"s Handguns of the World) that shows a photograph of a rough tool room prototype built by Mr. Browning in 1922 that looks like it was made with only files and stones. It appears to be a single stack. I have read that Browning was not in favor of making the gun a double stack but after he died Saive changed it into a double stack. It looks exactly like what became the High Power although the final design went through many changes before it was called the High Power. The barrel lockup and trigger linkage were most definitely Browning's design. He believed he could "improve" the 1911's design. Although Mr Saive did finish the design after Browning's death. I guess it really depends on how we define "High Power".

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Old November 5, 2011, 12:26 PM   #29
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To repeat what has been said, "It is designed for cocked and locked."

I was new to the Hi-Power last year and now have two.

Here is a link to a site that has been invaluable to me:
http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/D...Hi%20Power.htm

I carry mine condition three when I am in an area I deem safe. I know that it could change. I carry mine condition one when I am not in a safe area.

I do not go back and forth between the two conditions because of the process of dropping the mag and removing the chambered round, inserting round into mag, closing the action, slide, and reinserting the mag. If the gun ends up in condition one it stays that way until I find the right place and time to change it.
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Old November 5, 2011, 01:30 PM   #30
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The Hi-Power should be carried cocked-and-locked.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FALshootist
However, IIRC the Israel made their folks carry the gun with an empty chamber and the hammer down.
The IDF teaches empty chamber and NO safeties not because a cocked-and-locked single action is unsafe, but because their members may transition among several different handguns. Trying to remember whether the gun you're carrying today does or doesn't have a thumb safety or a decocker or a defibrillator gets confusing -- so they default to using the 'Israeli draw" for everything: empty chamber, full magazine, draw and rack the slide in one motion. They do it so fast that many 1911 shooters can't draw and flick off the thumb safety as quickly as an IDF guy can fire from an empty chamber.

Quote:
Originally Posted by drail
The barrel lockup and trigger linkage were most definitely Browning's design. He believed he could "improve" the 1911's design.
Umm ... maybe. The more logical, and historically supported, reason for the different link-down design is that the 1911 linked barrel design was patented, and the patent belonged to Colt rather than to John browning. So, in designing the pistol that eventually became the Hi-Power, Mr. Browning had to design around his own linked barrel invention, and find a different way to accomplish the same result.
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Old November 5, 2011, 03:47 PM   #31
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No mystery or reason to debate this question. The Hi Power is designed to be carried cocked and locked. Just like the 1911.

(BTW, who cares how the the IDF carried their BHP's years ago. They were wrong then but are probably carrying Glocks now so it's a mute point.)
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Old November 5, 2011, 04:34 PM   #32
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I have been carrying 1911's and BHP's cocked and locked since 1970 with out a problem. A good holster is a must have, lets face it it would be stupid to try carrying in a pocket on a set of cargo pants or just shoving it in to your waist band. It was designed for cocked and locked in a holster carry do it and there should be no problems. Also remember holsters of the era covered the trigger if not having a full flap on them. OWB holsters I like thumb break IWB I tend to the open top holsters but that just what works for me.
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Old November 5, 2011, 05:03 PM   #33
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I too carry my BHP cocked and locked, but only the one that Novak added an extended safety to. I find the original safety design too small.

An there is another reason Israelies carry empty chamber, that I discovered when I was there on a training mission: They tend to always be in crowds. Busses, theaters, shops, even on the street, you rarely see them alone or in small groups. My students said that in such a small country (smaller than New Jersey), a single accidental death is a tragedy. This fear of an ND lead (according to my contacts) to the adoption of the chamber empty carry.

And a friend just picked up a BHP with a 6 pointed star on the trigger guard and black paint finish, sold as Isralie surplus.
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Old November 5, 2011, 06:28 PM   #34
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And a friend just picked up a BHP with a 6 pointed star on the trigger guard and black paint finish, sold as Isralie surplus.
Today 05:34 PM
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Old November 5, 2011, 06:49 PM   #35
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When I was there in 1974, the police agencies were all armed with Smith & Wesson 5" Model 10's, in the British .38-200 (our .38 S&W). I don't recall seeing a BHP.
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Old November 6, 2011, 05:58 AM   #36
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I've been carrying a Browning Hi-Power IWB cocked and locked for over a decade now without incident. I can count on one hand the number of times I've had the safety get swiped off.

If you are very concerned about it, you can always use a Hi-Power with the firing pin safety, which is every Browning marked Hi-Power sold in the U.S. since 1982. As long as you have a quality holster that retains the gun and covers the trigger guard (I recommend anything by Milt Sparks; but I prefer the Versa-Max 2), then carrying a Hi-Power with the pistol cocked and safety off is no more dangerous than carrying a Glock, M&P, or any other "safe-action" type pistol. The safety just adds an extra layer of security.
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Old November 6, 2011, 06:05 AM   #37
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The BHP may be outdated, but that is due to the unwillingness of police agencies to properly train recruits for its manula of arms, and having to hire based on politically correct requirements, and not on merit, and qualifications. There is also a cost factor involved. FN doesn't give away their guns to police or military agencies.

BTW, the British military still uses the Browning Hi Power. It is far from obsolete.
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Old November 6, 2011, 07:21 AM   #38
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The BHP is kinda like the Makarov, great gun just outdated today.
There are more choices today but with new innovations in 9mm ammo, the BHP is better than ever. It is still in my top five autoloading pistols.
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Old November 7, 2011, 09:13 AM   #39
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Guess, I am with the crowd on this. On a single action style semi auto handgun such at the Browing Hi Power and with a functional thumb safety, Yes, I would carry "cocked and locked" for any duty use.

I have to add a second comment here. Others have mentioned "out dated." I would say a significant part of change in firearms is two things and this is getting off subject. One it is lack of training or awareness which leads to accidential discharges or dumb errors resulting in injury. That leads to civil litigation as we as a public entitiy are subject to such as "coffee hot" law suits. Hence the trend to internal safeties, DAO, locks, etc.
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Old November 7, 2011, 10:52 PM   #40
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As a shooter, the BHP is hardly outdated.

That said, there are many modern guns that shoot nearly as or equally well, that are easier to carry.

One of the things that makes the BHP a pleasure to shoot is its heft, which does make it less pleasant to carry than, say, a Glock, XD, M&P, or PX4.

But it can be carried, and is great to shoot.
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Old November 8, 2011, 12:11 PM   #41
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"Cocked & Locked" is the only way I would consider carrying a HP. In fact I have carried one "Cocked & Locked".
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Old November 8, 2011, 12:52 PM   #42
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No , that's why the thumb safety was added. The 1905 had neither , the 1907 and the 1910 , the 1911s direct predecessor , had a grip safety , but no thumb safety. The thumb safety was added to the final version of the 1911 at the insistance of Cavalry officers so a mounted trooper could safe the weapon temporarily as the 1910 holster could not be closed with the hammer cocked. After stopping his horse , a trooper could then lower the hammer with the pistol pointed in a safe direction. This is proof that John Browning did NOT design the 1911 to be cocked & locked.

The 1910 , no thumb safety.
Not all 1910s are alike. This is also a 1910 prototype.
http://www.google.com/imgres?um=1&hl...429,r:47,s:146
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Old October 27, 2012, 05:34 PM   #43
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My apologies - I realize that this is an old thread but I have some personal experiences with both Browning style thumb safeties and other pistol's safties which I hope will add some useful experience.

I have found, as people here have described that while carried cocked and locked in an IWB holster (all high quality brands) that they can indeed be flipped off 'safe' without realizing it.

For my BHP which is still the pistol which fits my hand the best I used the Milt Sparks Executive Special for many years (a comfortable, wonderful and non-printing design).

Perhaps once or twice in a ten year period when removing the pistol at night I found that the ambidextrous safety had come off safe, which is a hair-raising surprise.

I had this happen once with an early production Detonics as well. I'm certain it was because of both a long commute in a car where there might have been more rubbing because of both a shoulder safety belt and my squirming in the seat occasionally as well as carry in an IWB.

Be aware that I have also had something similar happen twice with a Glock 27 but it was an unusual holster which I have naturally corrected since it happened.

I was carrying the Glock in a soft deep-concealment holster similar to ThunderWear when I first got it and was still a bit unsure about the safe-action so I carried it for awhile magazine loaded but unchambered.

Twice in a rather short period of time when I took it out I found the trigger actuated (also while being in a car for a long time). Being near my sensitive parts - this was beyond hair-raising.

Since then I learned that the safe way to carry a Glock is in a firm good leather or kydex holster. I also bought the little under-the-trigger insert which is simple to push out during presentation.

The down-side of that little device is that the screw and plunger used to adjust back-tension on the trigger easily loosens (since it is all soft plastic) which makes it partially come out of its position behind the trigger. I solved this by putting a drop of RTV silicone on the plunger which rests behind the trigger and by applying a little weak LockTite in the plastic threads.

With the Browning, I am using a heavier thumb safety spring now as well as a heavier holster, both IWB and outside.

The old (Miami Vice years) Detonics was a terrible pistol which was both hard to conceal and was terribly inaccurate at longer ranges and began to think of it as a huge Derringer with a magazine. I sold it.

In over 25 years of tac/def training/instructing I have never had a safety come off either in an IWB or normal holster since you're mostly standing, moving or running.

I hope my long answer helps someone

p.s. I am thinking about slightly deepening the hole in the frame for the on-safe position of my Browning for a more positive feel. Also, my go-to and favorite pistol at this time is an old production Sig P229 and I have no worries about it because of the DA/SA action. Yes, the first shot is not easy but a lot of practice works wonders!

Best to all of you out there and many thanks for all the great information you all provide!!!
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Old October 27, 2012, 07:02 PM   #44
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re:

Quote:
No mystery or reason to debate this question. The Hi Power is designed to be carried cocked and locked. Just like the 1911.
Nah. It can be carried cocked and locked, but it was neither designed, nor was it intended specifically to be continuously maintained in Condition One. Not by Browning and not by the US Army.

The grip safety was an add-on experiment in a few 1905s...become an integral part of the new design in 1907...and retained in 1909 and again in 1910.

The thumb safety was added on request by the US Cavalry so that a mounted trooper fighting to regain control of a frightened, unruly horse could make the piece safe and reholster it in order to free up both hands. Even in those dark days, the people in the think tank understood that a man under stress might forget to remove his finger from the trigger guard before jamming it into a holster. Going on the premise that it's easier to train a man to make an extra move than to stop doing something he was doing when the Baker flag was hoisted...the thumb safety probably prevented a good many mounted troopers shooting themselves or their horses...or both.

This is something that Gaston Glock either overlooked, or chose to ignore, thus giving rise to an addition to the English Language, colloquially referred to as "Glock Leg."

"Locked" refers to the slide...not the hammer, and not even the sear. The cavalry requested a slide-locking safety in order to prevent pushing the slide out of battery, and...given the battlefield conditions...possibly not returning when the pistol was redrawn.

And, no. The thumb safety alone will not keep the hammer from falling and firing the gun. If the sear were to suddenly disintegrate, the hammer will fall, and it'll wipe the safety off faster than you can do it with your thumb.

Quote:
Not all 1910s are alike. This is also a 1910 prototype.
True that. There were eight 1910s produced and submitted to the Army Ordnance Board for evaluation. None had the "Manual Slide-Locking" safety. They were returned with the request for that modification, and six of the original eight were retrofitted and resubmitted. The rest...as they say...is history.
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Old October 27, 2012, 07:19 PM   #45
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The "Browning" High Power

This is John Browning's contribution to what was to become the High Power. The Grande Rendement was a doublestack, striker-fired 9mm pistol that was rejected by the French due to the grip frame being too large.



Browning was designing against his own patents...then owned by Colt...and he died before he could use most of his own design. The project was shelved, and he was working on a stack barrel shotgun when he died in 1926. Saive waited until the patents expired, and finished the gun by borrowing from Browning, and adding a few twists of his own...including the linkless barrel camming system.

It's often been said that the High Power "corrected" many of the mistakes that Browning made with the 1911. The main one being the elimination of the grip safety.

There were no mistakes made with either. Both pistols were designed on request and under contract by a military entity. Whatever features that were on both pistols were there because they were either specifically requested...or they were given a thumbs up by the people who were writing the checks. That's how it works.

If the French had requested a grip safety, the High Power would be wearing one today. If they'd asked for a rear sight that looked like rabbit ears, we'd probably be calling it "The Browning Bunny Rabbit."
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Old October 28, 2012, 01:46 PM   #46
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" I carried with loaded chamber and hammer down"

You really don't want to do that. <voice of experience> While trying to lower the hammer on a loaded chamber, I guarantee there will come a time when your thumb will slip. BOOM! Oops.
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Old October 29, 2012, 06:30 AM   #47
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I was going to comment on the same thing, carrying with a loaded chamber and hammer down is very unsafe but not for the same reason, it bypasses the half cock safety feature.
You are not going to "bump" a fully cocked Hi Power trigger and make the gun go off, it would take a significant blow to the hammer, even then you have the half cock and in a Mark III, you have the firing pin block.
Lowering a hammer on a loaded chamber is normal with a CZ75B if you want to carry half cock or hammer all the way down. I practice that and the DA pull every magazine change.
The Hi Power w/ a firing pin block carried cocked and locked is just as safe as a Glock, if not more so IMHO. I think in many cases peoples discomfort with cocked and locked carry is psychological because you can see the gun cocked whereas in a striker you can't.
I just started carrying my Israeli without the firing pin block and have not had any issues with bumping the safety off but with the magazine disengaging so I had to stop for now until I can replace the magazine latch to see if that helps.
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Old October 29, 2012, 07:04 AM   #48
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My MK III Hi Power has a half cock notch, and unlike the 1911, I can engage the safety with it at half cock. I do prefer cocked and locked, similar to when I carry a 1911
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