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Old November 3, 2011, 01:10 PM   #1
Wyoredman
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Browning Hi-Power - "Cocked and Locked"?

Hey pistoleros!

I just aquired a new Browning Hi-Power (Belgium) at the local RMEF banquet. Can this thing be carried in the holster in the "cocked and locked" status? Or to be safe, does the hammer need to be down, safety on then the safety disingaged and the hammer cocked to fire?

Never owned one, not sure. Thanks
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Old November 3, 2011, 01:16 PM   #2
Don H
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I've always carried 'em cocked and locked. Right offhand, I can't recall any incidents arising from the practice.
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Old November 3, 2011, 01:23 PM   #3
SHNOMIDO
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if its DA its another story, but if its a normal SA one i would carry it cocked and locked, same as a 1911.
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Old November 3, 2011, 01:27 PM   #4
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Yeah, Its a single action. The reason i was wondering-no grip safety. Thanks. Appreciated.
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Old November 3, 2011, 02:06 PM   #5
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Done it for nearly 40 years without incident.
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Old November 3, 2011, 04:59 PM   #6
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Remember that the original Browning design for what became the 1911 didn't have a grip safety either. If my memory serves me it was added at the request of the cavalry to make it safer from AD when in a holster and bouncing at full gallop with only the thumb safety.

The Browning/FN P-35 [Hi Power] has been used since 1937 in Cocked and Locked configuration, by the army and LEO of over 60 nations, if memory serves me. The British SAS used the Hi Power for decades. Israel used the Hi Power. I believe it was actually more common around the world than the 1911 was, as the rest of the world is comfortable with the 9mm round.

So, under 'normal' conditions, the Browning Hi Power is safe cocked and locked. Of course this means the thumb safety needs to be inspected periodically to verify that it doesn't bounce off/on easily, and the hammer/sear need to be inspected to verify there is no 'hammer follow' on shots: both steps every 1911 owner needs to take also to verify that it is safe to carry cocked and locked.

When I apply for my concealed weapons permit I am still trying to figure out if I want to go cocked-and-locked for my EDC guns [Hi Power and 4" 1911], or go S&W M&P [9c and fs .45]. I have no concerns with the Hi Power for carry.

Now, I DO have concerns about any cocked and locked firearm in an IWB holster [actually, in any holster, but mainly IWB] that does not have a shield that extends high enough to block the thumb safety from contact with anything. I see some where the thumb safety is pressed into the shirt or flesh, and sits above the holster. I would never carry cocked and locked with that for CCW, but that is MY standards for myself.
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Old November 3, 2011, 05:03 PM   #7
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However, IIRC the Israel made their folks carry the gun with an empty chamber and the hammer down.
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Old November 3, 2011, 05:05 PM   #8
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Like a 1911, the thumb safety cannot be applied unless the hammer is cocked. Hi-Powers made in the last 20 years have an internal firing pin block that makes them "drop safe", a la Series 80 in newer 1911s. Cocked 'n' locked is the normal ready condition.
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Old November 3, 2011, 05:22 PM   #9
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The IWB comment makes a bunch of sense. That is the way I was going to carry, but maybe now I will think over my options. Maybe this will be a good winter carry gun, under my coat. I still need to get familiar with it as I have never had one befor, but it does feel alot like my 1911. Should be a good one. BTW, it is chambered in .40S&W. Is this odd?
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Old November 3, 2011, 05:25 PM   #10
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Seems like Jeff Cooper wrote about an unnamed military organization that carried the P35 (military designation of the BHP) in a cocked and unlocked condition (would that be "Condition 0.5"?) without incident.
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Old November 3, 2011, 06:31 PM   #11
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Condition one!!!!!!:d
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Old November 3, 2011, 07:25 PM   #12
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I would never carry the HP in cocked and locked. That safety is not safe enough. There is too much risk IN MY OPINION of accidentally brushing off the safety, and accidentally brushing off the hammer.

I practiced drawing and cocking. I carried with loaded chamber and hammer down. that worked for me.

I'm sure that there are plenty of people who would never make a mistake carrying cocked and locked. I'm not that competent and I am not afraid to recognize my own shortcomings.
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Old November 3, 2011, 08:19 PM   #13
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The Israeli guns also didn't have a firing pin safety, IIRC. However, I heard the same story about how they carried the Jericho 941, which does have a FPS. It makes me wonder if they are trained that way irregardless of which brand/model of pistol they have on their hip. Hammer down on a loaded chamber with a FPS design is probably fine. I just prefer to do cocked and locked, if the pistol is reliable. An extended shield covering the safety is a must for me though, and I'd probably go single-sided safety so it is harder to have anything accidentally brush the safety off.

I was lucky enough to get a Silent Thunder holster for my Hi Power when I bought it used. Haven't used it much but I like the look, feel and features. Some may prefer a retension strap across the top so that it stops the hammer if the safety pops off AND the hammer drops. Just a thought. Probably better for owb carry.
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Old November 3, 2011, 08:25 PM   #14
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It's OK to carry cocked & locked with a holster. I had a pretty positive safety on mine, but to each his own.

If you don't want to have to worry about all this stuff and having to train to flip off a manual safety and worrying about it disengaging by itself, and you don't want the crummy DA/SA DAO, or "safe action" striker-fired triggers, buy a used PSP. H&K solved this dilemma with the P7.
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Old November 3, 2011, 08:29 PM   #15
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I always carried mine cocked and lock. The holster had a thumb break that also kept the hammer back.
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Old November 3, 2011, 08:37 PM   #16
drail
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I would definitely recommend cocked and locked BUT you must get very familiar with SA auto handling and practice with it until you can pop the safety off every time you draw automatically without thinking. This requires a lot of repetition. Also you must look closely at your carry rig and make very sure that it protects the safety from being wiped off by anything close to the gun when you're wearing it moving, twisting, bending, getting in and out of vehicles, etc. I had a cop bring me a 1911 that he carried when off duty while riding his Harley and every time he would take his carry gear off he would find the safety had moved to off. He was sure that I needed to "tighten" the safety up. I asked to look at his carry rig and he was using a fanny pouch holster turned around to his front. There was a strap inside the pouch that would catch on the safety and move it off when he leaned forward slightly on the bike. Make absolutely sure that your rig protects the safety and cannot snag on that little lever. There are a lot of holsters out there where the top edge ends right at the safety lever. Not good. Remember folks, Murphy runs the universe and he's always right behind you just waiting.
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Old November 3, 2011, 09:33 PM   #17
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Quote:
It makes me wonder if they are trained that way irregardless of which brand/model of pistol they have on their hip.
That's exactly the case. Rather than gun-specific training, they adopted techniques that would work for any/every gun. Drawing and racking the slide is not the "right" way to handle any gun, but it works for every gun.
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Old November 3, 2011, 09:49 PM   #18
Jeff OTMG
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Cocked and locked for me always. Even if the safety is somehow depressed the gun will not fire unless the trigger is pressed as well. Just like a 1911.
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Old November 3, 2011, 10:06 PM   #19
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THS holster....

they make an IWB kydex holster that covers the safety.
http://www.thsholsters.com/ths/
good quality...made in Mesa, AZ, USA.
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Old November 4, 2011, 06:27 AM   #20
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Condition One

While there are many variations of the Browning HP, I found that my 1970s vintage HP was not conducive to cocked and locked carry with the stock safety. I had an extended safety installed which made a world of difference. If you cannot draw any 1911 style handgun and swipe off the safety without thought, then something is wrong.

Also, I was never a fan of ambi-safeties. I feel that having a safety lever rubbing against your jacket just might disengage the safety without you knowing it. I'm right handed and the stock safety on the left side of the frame is sufficient and secure. Some holster designs prevent the safety from moving while holstered. This is important for a gun without a grip safety.
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Old November 4, 2011, 09:18 AM   #21
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Refer to the late Steve Camp's website...

www.hipowersandhandguns.com

Very good infor of the highpower.

YEs, the HP can be carried in locked&loaded" normally a thumbreak holster, with the strap between the hammer and FP is desirable.

Refer to Bianchi's "blue steel & gunleather" book for additional info.

There is also a modification called "fast-n-safe" that allows a hammer down but actuating the safety flips the hammer to full cock and ready to shoot.

It describe in Camps website.
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Old November 4, 2011, 09:33 AM   #22
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Well I took the pistol to the range last night and it is obvious that if it is going to be a carry gun, I need to learn to carry it "condition 1". The recoil spring is so stiff that it takes tons of effort to run the slide and the whole procedure of drawing and cocking the hammer is a bit of a pain. It sure has a nice feel in the hand, though!

Holsters, any other ideas? I am looking at the Galco as suggested in an previous post. But it seems every time I look for a holster, it takes me three or four before I get one that really works. I bet most of you are like me, a whole chest full of holsters that you don't use.
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Old November 4, 2011, 10:13 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by federali

Condition One
While there are many variations of the Browning HP, I found that my 1970s vintage HP was not conducive to cocked and locked carry with the stock safety. I had an extended safety installed which made a world of difference. If you cannot draw any 1911 style handgun and swipe off the safety without thought, then something is wrong.

Also, I was never a fan of ambi-safeties...
This /\

There are an awful lot of folks walking around carrying pistols that require only a pull on the trigger to fire them. The presence of a thumb safety adds another layer of safety, but only if disengaging it can be done instantly and from the subconscious.

The thumb safety should also be crisp in operation and feature a solid detent, which prevents it from moving in either direction until you manipulate it.
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Old November 4, 2011, 03:25 PM   #24
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I know a lot of people like a thumbstrap under the hammer of their cocked and locked 1911 or HiPower.

I am not one of those people.

I carry either model, C&L on a regular basis, and I do not use thumbstraps. There has never been an issue.

The HiPower fits in most, if not all, 1911 holsters, so it's really not hard to find a good holster for IWB or OWB.
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Old November 4, 2011, 10:01 PM   #25
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Thumb strap........

That is the way I carry my BHP - always C&L. No problem! However, as stated above, if you are uncofortable with it......buy a PSP (I have both)!

J
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