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Old November 1, 2011, 08:22 AM   #1
WildBill45
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Where do you draw the line?

Putting so many tactics out there, in public, where do you draw line here to prevent bad guys from being educated to use these same tactics on good guys?

Just wondering? I make videos, and hold back for this reason.

Retired cop, who is concerned...
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Old November 1, 2011, 08:35 AM   #2
ligonierbill
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From an old Pittsburgher, mostly the bad guys don't expect you to be armed. They want an easy mark. Personally, I don't really have tactics. I don't expect trouble, I don't cause trouble. I try to be aware of my surroundings, and I hope to identify that rare lethal threat in time. Then it's draw and shoot, and shoot, and shoot...
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Old November 1, 2011, 09:00 AM   #3
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WildBill,

There are a few things I hold back, and only teach in person to people I know are good guys. I do this as a salve to my conscience, not in any reasonable expectation that it matters a damn.

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Old November 1, 2011, 09:04 AM   #4
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You know, I always kinda wondered that myself.

Such as, do they know that you "can't" shoot them in retreat, or "can't" shoot for theft (in come states), or other instances/situations/crimes that you "cannot" shoot them for. The quotations are there for a reason, you very likely can, but is not justified under the law.
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Old November 1, 2011, 09:22 AM   #5
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They are not state secrets that need special handling.

The way I see it, this would be much like restricting all handguns...because the bad guys might use them against the good guys.
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Old November 1, 2011, 09:42 AM   #6
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I don't think that the average bad guy spends much time scanning message boards trying to develop his tactics. I wouldn't worry about it.
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Old November 1, 2011, 09:47 AM   #7
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Where I live, only criminals or cops carry guns in public. Best tactic is to avoid both when possible.
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Old November 1, 2011, 09:57 AM   #8
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I don't think that the average bad guy spends much time scanning message boards trying to develop his tactics. I wouldn't worry about it.
+1 these are mostly people who couldn't even be bothered to pay attention in school to learn basic math and reading skills. They're too busy partying, getting high, getting drunk or procreating to study ANYTHING much less study "tactics".

I wouldn't worry about it...
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Old November 1, 2011, 10:11 AM   #9
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I don't think that the average bad guy spends much time scanning message boards trying to develop his tactics. I wouldn't worry about it.
^^ this.

I go with my overall plan of serious reduction in likelyhood that I'll be a victim of the random bad guy. If he's a serious tactics/gun person it's fairly unlikely that I'm going to do much to stop him anyway, so I don't worry about that guy.

I think in general the bad guys aren't usually even gun guys (other than owning a gun). Bad guys practice? Fairly unlikely.
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Old November 1, 2011, 10:11 AM   #10
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Criminals are lazy, that's why they're criminals. They aren't going to take the time to practice your karate chops.
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Old November 1, 2011, 10:27 AM   #11
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I think in general the bad guys aren't usually even gun guys (other than owning a gun). Bad guys practice? Fairly unlikely.
Platt and Matix.

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Old November 1, 2011, 10:35 AM   #12
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I used to have a friend that lived in south Chicago.
He used to go running on weekend mornings with his church group; his church (and running group) had a few ex-gang bangers in them. One morning they ran past a bunch sitting around the stoop of a brownstone minding everyone else's business. A few stood up as they ran past. The ex-gang church members ID'd them as gang members. So, the group ran around the block and ran past them again to show that they weren't afraid of them (think "take back the streets"). Anyhow, as they passed the second time, ALL of the thugs stood up and started moving to specific positions. The ex-gangsters in the pointed out that the local hoods were preparing to fight them, so church group ran on and decided not to circle again.
Point being: Although, I don't think criminals scan websites looking for pistol fighting tactics nor read von Clausewitz in their spare time, I think that it's a little too simplistic to assume that they are going to run around like chickens with their heads cut off when in a confrontation.
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Old November 1, 2011, 10:48 AM   #13
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Criminals are lazy, that's why they're criminals. They aren't going to take the time to practice your karate chops.
I have seen several surveillance videos of prisoners practicing disarms in the prison yard. You can find them on BluTube if you look.

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Old November 1, 2011, 11:05 AM   #14
Ed Jaws
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WildBill45 and pax, I think you're doing a disservice to the vast majority of good guys by holding back.

As far as:

Quote:
Bad guys practice? Fairly unlikely.
Read "New Findings from the FBI about Cop Attackers & Their Weapons"

http://www.stoppingpower.net/comment...op_killers.asp

Quote:
Familiarity:

Several of the offenders began regularly to carry weapons when they were 9 to 12 years old, although the average age was 17 when they first started packing "most of the time." Gang members especially started young.

Nearly 40% of the offenders had some type of formal firearms training, primarily from the military. More than 80% "regularly practiced with handguns, averaging 23 practice sessions a year," the study reports, usually in informal settings like trash dumps, rural woods, back yards and "street corners in known drug-trafficking areas."

One spoke of being motivated to improve his gun skills by his belief that officers "go to the range two, three times a week [and] practice arms so they can hit anything."

In reality, victim officers in the study averaged just 14 hours of sidearm training and 2.5 qualifications per year. Only 6 of the 50 officers reported practicing regularly with handguns apart from what their department required, and that was mostly in competitive shooting. Overall, the offenders practiced more often than the officers they assaulted, and this "may have helped increase [their] marksmanship skills," the study says.

The offender quoted above about his practice motivation, for example, fired 12 rounds at an officer, striking him 3 times. The officer fired 7 rounds, all misses.

More than 40% of the offenders had been involved in actual shooting confrontations before they feloniously assaulted an officer. Ten of these "street combat veterans," all from "inner-city, drug-trafficking environments," had taken part in 5 or more "criminal firefight experiences" in their lifetime.

One reported that he was 14 when he was first shot on the street, "about 18 before a cop shot me." Another said getting shot was a pivotal experience "because I made up my mind no one was gonna shoot me again."

Again in contrast, only 8 of the 50 LEO victims had participated in a prior shooting; 1 had been involved in 2 previously, another in 3. Seven of the 8 had killed offenders.
Also "Shooting Style" and "Hit Rate" subheadings are very interesting where tactics go out the window.

Quote:
Twenty-six of the offenders [about 60%], including all of the street combat veterans, "claimed to be instinctive shooters, pointing and firing the weapon without consciously aligning the sights," the study says.

"They practice getting the gun out and using it," Davis explained. "They shoot for effect." Or as one of the offenders put it: "[W]e're not working with no marksmanship... We just putting it in your direction, you know... It don't matter... as long as it's gonna hit you…if it's up at your head or your chest, down at your legs, whatever... Once I squeeze and you fall, then... if I want to execute you, then I could go from there."
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Old November 1, 2011, 11:08 AM   #15
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Darn, I was just about to post that report.

Also, if you look at rampage killers - many had training or spent significant range time with their weapons.

As far as training - I've taken classes were techniques to counter typical police moves were only taught to well vetted folks.
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Old November 1, 2011, 11:16 AM   #16
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Ed Jaws,

Everyone does what their conscience allows.

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"The one thing that doesn't abide by majority rule is a person's conscience." – Harper Lee
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Old November 1, 2011, 11:58 AM   #17
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I am seriously concerned, as I do believe a lot of thugs do look at these videos. I have a video out that spotlights a young woman shooter who shoots for team Glock:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5P2cD4498gs

You wouldn't believe the comments people try to post with that one. I Have the settings so I have to approve all comments, and I always go the poster's site and check them out. Some look to be thugs to me, and some are just Perverts, and make perverted comments, both I block. This makes me wonder how many watch other videos, and who may pick up a point or two that could help them hurt someone.

It makes me think, as these young criminals are wired like the rest of the kids. Do not under estimate these thugs, some are very smart. If they got a real job in the real world they may do all right!

I save my special stuff for in person still, and I was very good in Martial Arts, a long time and many pounds ago, but my tactics still apply, and I am very reserved in what to show. Am I wrong? I May be, but I like to error on the side of the good guy's point of view...
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Old November 1, 2011, 12:02 PM   #18
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I thought of Platt and Matix even before I got to Pax's comment. I would think they were more the exception, than the rule for bad guys; however, I may stand corrected.

My question about the opening question is if you draw the line in what you teach, what prevents the next person from teaching what you wouldn't teach? In theory, you can only sequester the knowledge and techniques which you alone possess. That is what you control. If someone else knows – they can use or teach.
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Old November 1, 2011, 12:09 PM   #19
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My question about the opening question is if you draw the line in what you teach, what prevents the next person from teaching what you wouldn't teach? In theory, you can only sequester the knowledge and techniques which you alone possess. That is what you control. If someone else knows – they can use or teach.
serf 'rett, see my first comment in this thread.

Bad guys gonna learn somehow. But I will not be the person who teaches 'em. What you do with your knowledge is up to you and your conscience.

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Old November 1, 2011, 12:09 PM   #20
WildBill45
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My question about the opening question is if you draw the line in what you teach, what prevents the next person from teaching what you wouldn't teach?
They don't know it, that is what stops them, and worries me! I am very creative, as are others, and I have developed stuff, and won big competitions with, and survived on the street with, that I do not want home invaders to know, or druggies, etc... That is the nightmare I worry about.

Examples:

Techniques for using space and control that defy convention, and common training, as we all know some training is for the purpose of CYA, and not effectiveness! Those new guys with only CYA training could die, so the Department can spare themselves a law suit. Life and Death requires responses that most may not know, or dare to show!!!
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Old November 1, 2011, 12:18 PM   #21
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I believe most bad guys already know the tactics. It’s their stock in trade. If they don’t have the stock then they’re probably no longer trading.

If I was training then I would train the student in tactics to the best of my ability. If not that then I wouldn’t train.
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Old November 1, 2011, 12:26 PM   #22
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If I was training then I would train the student in tactics to the best of my ability. If not that then I wouldn’t train.
Yup, absolutely. When you work with someone in person, you owe them your very best.

That has nothing to do with whether you "owe" it to everyone in the world, including some nameless and faceless internet name, to tell them everything you know.

Some techniques and some information are best reserved for in person.

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Old November 1, 2011, 12:34 PM   #23
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There is a lot of things I hold back. Mainly in the LE Sniper and EOD techniques.

But the rest, I'm into competition shooting, Rifle, Pistol and CMP GSM vintage rifle shooting.

My main goal is to help anyone I can to get more shooters into the game. When I started out, there were tons of old shooters more then willing to jump in and help me get started. I think I ow it to them to do the same.

But in reality, bandits and gang members don't read Internet forms to learn how to shoot their pistols sideways, they have TV for that. An example, I really doubt "Mr baggy pants doper" is gonna spend the hours dry firing needed to become proficient with rifles or pistols. They'd rather spend their training time watching some idiotic TV show.

They are not going to spend the time, money and effert to develope a load for their Match ARs to shoot 1000 yard service rifle matches.
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Old November 1, 2011, 01:10 PM   #24
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Well, what I want to know is how you tell the good guys from the bad guys. Is there something about the shape of their head or the way they dress or what. Serial killers seem to be the nice guys next door, or so I'm lead to believe.
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Old November 1, 2011, 03:57 PM   #25
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The "normal" bad guy has sociopathic/psychopathic thinking and personality traits. A genuine "born to be bad" person will usually go one of two ways.

He will be arrogant, conceited, careless, and certain of himself. he's going to learn from movies, make up his own tactics, emulate his "peers."

(rambo, tupac, freddy krueger- Remember, a truly psychopathic person has no "heroes" or even "superiors"- he has only got people whom he "holds in esteem.")

His only tactical training is his imagination, his offhand observations, and the training that he gains in actual real world experience.

This type is a fly by the seat pinhead whose only asset is his determination to win, and lack of respect for rules or conventions. he will hold his gun sideways when he shoots. He will not go to any real extremes to learn or improve his mojo. He will probably have drug or alcohol problems, and be an overall loser.

The other is the type who will doggedly pursue becoming a terminator or a borg. They will watch snuff films. they will read soldier of fortune, and buy all of the books like "1,000 ways to kill a guard dog with nothing but a tongue supressor." They will seek out "tricks." they will engage in martial arts and body building, but in a more narcisistic manner than in a serious, organized manner to create a well rounded package. The goal of their martial arts won't be Tai Chi, body centric, or defensive centric, they will learn offensive and brutality based tactics. You will see them sleeping through class sessions that discuss legality and morals of combat. during one on one training, there will be observable behaviors that will stand out as "odd."

In general; the criminal is not going to seek out training from an LE oriented source. If he does go to clint smith, or similar program it will be an anomaly. He will stick out like clint eastwood at the ballet. He is not wanting to BE a clint smith, cop, or so forth, he just wants to improve his skills as a thug/predator.

Maybe only a few percent of the real violent criminal element would actually seek out training from legitimate sources. think back about the most organized, highly motivated, highly successful violent criminals. The miami FBI massacre, the oakland body armor gun fight, columbine, etc, none of them even remotely became involved in outside training. They used the internet, the black market, and basically self taught themselves, created their own weapons systems, and so forth.

The odds that an individual would unwittingly train a person who went on to be a killer or violent criminal are slim.

The probability that a person would train a LE officer who is already rotten to the core, or will turn bad, is far higher. There are bad people who are drawn to be police or security guards. it is natural for them to pursue more normal LE only training methods. it is natural for them to be involved with legitimate training. In the end, it is natural to find evidence of this training in crimes committed by them.

All things considered, the possibility that someone of the caliber of the columbine shooters would sift through page after page of discussion here, and then CARRY AWAY ANYTHING OF VALUE, is absurdly small. The possibility that a person would pass on training in a one on one situaiton that would be of value to a criminal is negligible. Whatever you teach, will be seed tossed on rocky soil. The criminal won't practice, he won't take notes, he won't become anything more than he already is. Our/your knowledge passed on has a near zero probability of harming society in general.


Seriously, how many read all of this post, and gathered the meaning of it? Would some punk from New jeersy with a stolen glock have learned anything from the last thread?

Last edited by briandg; November 1, 2011 at 04:05 PM.
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