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Old October 31, 2011, 06:11 PM   #1
Savage308...
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New Savage Model 10 .308 cal Shoots 6” low at 25yds and 6” high at 100yds, Why?

I’m new here so bear with me if I sound like a newb. I’ll do my best to include all the necessary information but if I’ve left something out post it up and I’ll answer as quickly as possible.

As the title says; I’m having some issues getting a new deer rifle sighted in and I’m wondering if it’s normal or if I’m doing something wrong. The gun is a model 10 Savage with the accutrigger that came bore sighted with a cheapo 3x9x40 scope and it’s a 308 caliber. It’s one of those guns built and sold exclusively through Wal-Mart. I’m shooting Winchester Super X Power Point 150 Grain ammo (also purchased at Wal-Mart). Here’s a link to the ammo. I would have included a link to the gun but Wal-Mart’s website is about half useless.

http://www.winchester.com/products/r...ges/X3085.aspx

So here’s my big issue. I took the gun out today and set up a target at 25 yards to make sure I would be on the paper when I moved out to 100 yards. I was lying prone on a sandy field road using both a front and rear bag to stabilize the gun. I shot two rounds at the target and they hit within an inch of each other and were nearly centered on the target but they were 6 inches low of the point of aim. I went ahead and moved the target back to 100 yards and fired two more shots and they hit 6 inches high of the point of aim.

Does this sound right? Should I have a 12 inch difference between a 25 yard shot and a 100 yard shot? If I had just shot at 100 yards and been 6 inches high I would have been happy but now I’m worried about what I’ll do if a deer comes in close. Am I supposed to hold high on it’s back to make sure I don’t shoot under it?

Unfortunately I didn’t get a chance to shoot beyond the 100 yards because the area I was at isn’t set up for long range shots. I just wanted to get a feel for the rifle before making the drive out to where I can attempt some 200 to 300 yard shots.

So what's the verdict? Am I doing something wrong or am I just crazy?
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Old October 31, 2011, 06:34 PM   #2
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Forget all the hocus-pocus mathematical formulas, phase of the moon and if Jupiter is aligned with Mars. Sight it in at what ever distance you select. If it groups well, OK. Then shoot at closer or farther distances and observe bullet impact point. The cone of dispersion is not the same on all rifles at the same distances.

If it doesn’t group well at the selected distance and it’s not the shooters fault (YOU), then start looking for a problem........
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Last edited by Hog Buster; October 31, 2011 at 06:46 PM.
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Old October 31, 2011, 06:52 PM   #3
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I would look at Scope shadow, Do you have the same cheek weld everytime? Shoot more and maybe get some pointers from others. Just make sure that your position is the same everytime.
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Old October 31, 2011, 09:02 PM   #4
Savage308...
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What's scope shadow?

I feel like I'm doing things right. Both shots at 100 yards made one big hole instead of two separate ones.

I'm going to go out tomorrow and shoot some more and see how it goes.
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Old October 31, 2011, 09:35 PM   #5
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Either the scope. or the shooter has a problem. There is no way the ammo or rifle is going to have a foot diffference between 25 and 100 yards. Get her zeroed at 100 and see what happens at other ranges. NEVER trust a boresighted gun. They are all a waste of time and money.

Set the gun in a rest or somehow get it in a stable position. Remove the bolt and get a target centered in the bore at 25-50 yards. Look through the scope. Adjust the scope until the crosshairs and bore are in the same spot. Do this right and you will be within 2" of the bull at 50 yards on the 1st shot. Much cheaper and far more accurate than any tool you stick in the barrel. The bore sight tools may get you on the paper for the 1st shot, but that is about it.
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Old October 31, 2011, 09:43 PM   #6
sc outdoorsman
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I am no expert (ask my wife to get more info) but I would check the action screws and scope to make sure everything is tight. Also if the rifle has a synthetic(read plastic) stock forend pressure variation will move the barrel skewing the shot. The stock will put pressure on the barrel throwing shots off line. May not be your problem these are things to look into.

Edit: If these check ok get someone else to shoot the rifle to make sure this is consistant. If so see if you can borrow a known good scope to use verifying that the scope isn't the problem.

Last edited by sc outdoorsman; October 31, 2011 at 09:52 PM.
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Old October 31, 2011, 09:56 PM   #7
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If your shots are touching at the same distance then the rifle isnt to blame. I would zero the rifle at 100yds and go from there. Also you may wanna try diff brands of ammo i know my savage 10 308 shoots moa with remington corelokt and federal fusion but wont shoot hornady sst worth a darn.
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Old November 1, 2011, 11:42 AM   #8
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The difference in impact points of any .308 Win round between 25 and 100 yards would only be an inch or less. Something is out of whack.

Check all action, scope base and ring screws for tightness, and check the crown of the muzzle for damage. My gut feeling is that the scope is damaged internally. A good idea to have someone else shoot it though.
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Old November 1, 2011, 11:53 AM   #9
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Yes, it could be the scope. I recently had a new rifle with a new scope and was trying to find a good bullet/powder combination. I must've burned 150 rounds or more, with no good combo found, before I decided to try another scope on the gun. All that work and loading was for nothing. I replaced the scope and started all over. At one point I was so frustrated that I had been on the verge of selling or rebarrelling the gun. I just never even considered (until after reading an article on accuracy problems) that the scope might be the problem. It was a $440 scope from a major Japanese maker.
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Old November 1, 2011, 01:37 PM   #10
Art Eatman
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Normally, a scoped bolt-action .308 if dead-on at 25 yards will be within two or three inches of the center at 100 yards.

Six inches low at 25 yards oughta be bouncing off the dirt at 100. Six inches low at 25 yards would be 24 inches low at 100...

Sumpn's wrong.
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Old November 1, 2011, 06:49 PM   #11
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I'd bore sight it again like JMR40 suggested and tighten every thing down again. Very likely though, it's a problem with either the scope or the rings or both. They are both pretty cheap and sooner or later you'll replace them any way.
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Old November 1, 2011, 07:13 PM   #12
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No rifle expert here so forgive me if this sounds off base............

But if the scope is mounted way above the bore of the rifle doesn't that have some effect?
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Old November 3, 2011, 07:30 AM   #13
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I don't know if this helps but I'm going to throw it out anyway. I don't have a great deal of experience shooting. I bought a my first high powered rifle earlier this year. I was having trouble getting good groups or anything even close for that matter. I was shouldering the rifle the same way I did my small .22 rifle. It was horribly uncomfortable. That was when it hit me that I have to find the sweet spot for my cheek on this particular gun, and that was going to be in a different place then my .22. I found it, practiced holding the sight window in my basement for a few weeks. Next time I went to the range my shots grouped much better. I managed to keep 2" groups at 100 yrds with factory ammo. I still practice shouldering that gun and paying attention to my sight window. I don't know if this helps, but it sure helped me.
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Old November 3, 2011, 07:55 AM   #14
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Art is correct on the trajectory.

Since the bullet starts out below the scope, if it's still below the scope at 25, it's going to be REALLY low at 100.

Beyond that, you shouldn't be "happy" 6" high at 100 yards, regardless of any other distance. 1 1/2" high at 100 is probably about right. Anything over 3 is ridiculous.

The bullet crosses the point of aim twice (normally). The first time is somewhere around 22-28 yards and the next time is somewhere roughly between 175-275, depending on the cartridge. That means that everywhere between those two points you will hit high and somewhere around 100 (for most cartridges) is maximum height.
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Old November 3, 2011, 06:18 PM   #15
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What you have said is impossible with properly functioning equipment. Your boreline intersected paper 6 inches below line of sight at 25 yards. your line of sight should have been several feet above both bore line and line of impact at 100 yards. Your bore line could never have intersected with your line of sight.

I can't explain this. My only thoughts are that your scope is a piece of trash, or loose. This could not be explained by ammunition or rifle flaws.

Are you sure that some joker didn't fiddle with your scope settings between distances?
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Old November 3, 2011, 06:39 PM   #16
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This is how that should have worked.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg trajectory.jpg (41.3 KB, 62 views)
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Old November 4, 2011, 05:42 AM   #17
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Buy yourself another scope...For 150.00 bucks you can buy the Redfield.

My freind had one of those 'package deal' scopes on his 30-06.. every time he sqeezed that trigger the point of aim would move.
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Old November 4, 2011, 01:33 PM   #18
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Agree with Arteatman

Most domestic scope mounts put the scope about 1.5" above the bore axis. A rifle shooting to point of aim at 25 yards would indeed be about an inch high at 50 yards and 2-3" high at 100 yards. Six inches low at 25 yards should put the bullet into the ground at around 50 yards.

When using a rifle rest, it should be a soft one. A hard rest causes rifles to shoot high.
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Old November 6, 2011, 07:44 AM   #19
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I vote for a combination of scope parallax and shooting prone causing the 25 yard group to be so low. I've seen many shooters who didn't do as well shooting prone as from a regular bench due to the difference in head position and cheekweld.
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Old November 6, 2011, 08:44 AM   #20
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Ok, I haven't read the responses (I'm short on time this morning), but...

I have a question. Did you shoot the 25 yard group with the 'scope set on 3x, and the 100 yard group with it set on 9x?

I've seen some "cheap" scopes that will vary the point of impact as you change the magnification of the 'scope. That's pretty much the only explanation I can come up with, unless you have the 'scope mounted on really high bases/rings.

I suggest re-shooting the groups on a single magnification setting; maybe 6x?

If your's is varying the point of impace as you change the magnification, you have two options. One, you can shoot it as a fixed power 'scope, and leave it on whatever power you choose to use. The other alternative is to purchase a better 'scope. I'm partial to Leupold 'scopes, but there are a number of good ones out there. Buy the best you can afford if you go this route.

Good luck!
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Last edited by Daryl; November 6, 2011 at 08:51 AM.
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Old November 6, 2011, 09:10 AM   #21
Nathan
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Since you are "on paper", stop bore sighting! Confirm your base and rings are tight by trying to add torque. If none are loose...mind you, the torque is pretty low.

Sight in at 100. Confirm at 200 - 300 and then at 25 again.

Basically, the issue is probably the scope. Somebody needs to communicate to Walmart that there are no good free scopes! It is probably parallax. A 100yd 0 will put you near the std 150yd parallax setting.


It maybe wacky until you get a decent scope and mount.
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Old November 6, 2011, 03:29 PM   #22
Daryl
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Quote:
Basically, the issue is probably the scope. Somebody needs to communicate to Walmart that there are no good free scopes! It is probably parallax. A 100yd 0 will put you near the std 150yd parallax setting.

It's not parallax. That will only affect impact to a very small degree, and is only a factor in very precise target type shooting.

Wal-mart will continue to sell rifles with junk 'scopes as long as folks will buy them. It's the consumer who needs to realize that they're junk.

Caveat Emptor, so to speak.

Again, I truly feel it's the problem I described above. I've seen this on better 'scopes that the ones included in package deals at Wally-Mart. I remember this happening on several different Simmons 'scopes I tried on a Weatheerby MKV. A customer paid for the rifle, 'scope, hardware, and mounting that included bore sighting. I could see the movement of the crosshairs on the bore-sighter. I finally chose the one that did it the least, and let it go at that.

Sad, but true, and it's the only explanation that makes sense to me.

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Old November 6, 2011, 05:08 PM   #23
Savage308...
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So after reading everyone’s advice I decided to head back to the range and see if I could figure this thing out. Once I got to the range I went to pick the rifle up out of its hard case and when I did the scope and rings literately fell off and into the dirt! I was angered and relieved at the same time.

A couple hours later and a new Bushnell Trophy XLT with the 600 yard DOA reticle and I headed back at the range. I “bore sighted” it in with the bolt out and looking through the barrel at a 50 yard target (thanks for the idea jmr40). I put a couple shots down range and I was on the paper. A few adjustments later and I shot a 3 shot 1 inch groups at 100 yards. I moved the target out to 200 yards and using the DOA reticle I shot a 3 inch group; out to 300 yards and another 3 inch group. I went ahead and pulled the target in to 25 yards to replicate the same shot from the other day that was giving me trouble and the 3 shot group landed an inch low of the 100 yard group.

At this point I was grinning and already envisioning the deer that will be in my freezer come the end of November. Thanks for all the advice guys. I’m shocked to see 20+ responses. I guess this must be the place for online hunting and shooting forums.
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Old November 7, 2011, 07:56 AM   #24
Daryl
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It's interesting that you were shooting such tight groups with a loose 'scope.

Glad you figured it out, and good luck on your hunt.

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Old November 7, 2011, 09:48 AM   #25
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