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Old November 21, 2011, 11:21 AM   #1
C0untZer0
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Here's a twist..

A lot of people are prepared to defend their homes from invaders while they are in their homes, but how many people are prepared - mentally and otherwise to confront invaders when they return home, after being out of the house?

I admit my situational awareness fu sucks. I would be totally taken by surprise if I came home and trespassers were there...




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Old November 21, 2011, 11:40 AM   #2
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Ours is pretty simple. If we come home, and theres a lot of screaming and carrying on, then the dogs are doing their job, and we know just where the problem is. If Im in a good mood, Ill call them off.

If its quiet, and there are no doggies meeting us at the door, nubby little tails wagging, then my wife goes in. Todd help anyone who hurts her babies.


Having big doggies works both ways, whether youre there or not.
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Old November 21, 2011, 12:20 PM   #3
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I originally posted this because of a story with a byline "A Northwest Indiana man out walking dog returns home and nabs two carjackers.

Well actually, he was in his back yard with his dog when they came on his property, fleeing the police. That's totally different.

The quality of journalism has really gone down...

Yes he had a gun on him and he held them at gun point, but it's not like he returned home from walking the dog and found them in his house.

I can't find the original story now but here is local CBS version:

http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2011/11/...en-carjackers/
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Old November 21, 2011, 12:34 PM   #4
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If its quiet, and there are no doggies meeting us at the door, nubby little tails wagging
That's usually what I go with, even when she misbehaves my dog always meets us at the door before either running out it or diving under the bed.

I do, however, "clear" the house when coming home. No, i do not go room to room searching for BGs to shoot. But I do wander around while doing my usual homecoming routine of shoes off, jacket hung up, removal of pants, etc, and up until pants removal I am carrying on my person.

Most BGs who specialize in B&Es do not usually wait for residents to come home, typically they seem to take what they want and leave, lying in wait tends to be sexual predator territory.
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Old November 21, 2011, 04:08 PM   #5
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Quote:
C0untZer0
Here's a twist..
A lot of people are prepared to defend their homes from invaders while they are in their homes, but how many people are prepared - mentally and otherwise to confront invaders when they return home, after being out of the house?

I admit my situational awareness fu sucks. I would be totally taken by surprise if I came home and trespassers were there...
If I knew my home was compromised, I'd go to the car and get the big iron (I'd already be carrying a mouse gun). Call the cops & give 'em a detailed description of myself. Then the rest depends on the situation. Are there loved ones in the house? If it's just stuff in there, I could care less and will let the professionals handle it. If there are loved ones in the house then it's time to clear it (as hard as it is). No way would I leave a loved one in that kind of situation.
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Old November 21, 2011, 04:41 PM   #6
markj
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but how many people are prepared - mentally and otherwise to confront invaders when they return home, after being out of the house?
Might be a very dangerous situation. I would dial up 011, then wait until they cleared the house. Why risk a wound ? let a guy with a vest do it.
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Old November 21, 2011, 05:42 PM   #7
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This is the exact scenario for which I mostly carry. Out at Wally World or the local Krogers or Burger King, . . . in the crowd and with the crowded, . . . folks are normally "safe" so to speak.

Coming back to strangers in your house after having been gone "X" amount of time is statistically far more often the occurance than being in McDonald when the active shooter comes in.

My radar is far more "up" as we come up the drive way than it is standing in the ordering line at Wendy's.

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Old November 21, 2011, 05:47 PM   #8
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This was brought home last week in our community, where a man came home at about 6:15 PM, surprised a burglar, and was shot dead. It happened across a small residential street from my church, during a choir practice.

I was actually scheduled to accompany the choir practice at that time, but I got tied up at work and the director covered for me. Sitting at the piano on Sunday I could look out the window and see the house where it happened. Oddly enough, no one at the church heard the shot; the choir was in a windowless practice room, and the shooting was called in by another neighbor.

I have arrived at work and found my office burglarized, and since then I have been a bit more alert to signs of things amiss when arriving at home or office. I am not sure what else one can do, though; I don't intend to enter either home or office with gun drawn every time. Dwight55 probably is on base in his approach, and many of us might do well to emulate it.
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Old November 21, 2011, 06:36 PM   #9
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When I leave and/or come home is when I am on guard the most...probably more when I leave.

good point since I am less worried when I am home and don't carry on my person in my home. I think it is instinct with the leaving the home bit
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Old November 21, 2011, 09:41 PM   #10
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Body armor

Quote:
It makes even more sense than wearing a gun. It's legal everywhere, sets off no metal detectors, requires no skill or training, is no risk/threat to anyone involved, and is more likely to save your life
I agree with this. When I started thinking about protective vests a while a go my thinking on it completely changed.

Like choices about which firearm to carry, choices have to be made concerning what equipment / protective clothing you will use. Most people do not carry a full sized 10mm auto or 44 magnum (some do), some people choose to carry a 380 Auto or a pocket nine.

With body armor you can wear Level IIA which stops most of the calibers that ciminals commonly use. It won't stop 357 or 44 mag and I don't think it is rated for 9mm +P but it stops standard 9mm & 40 cal, 38 spl, 380, 32, 25 etc..

Level IIA is lighter and cooler than the Level II or Level IIIA, and in winter months I don't see how it could be that burdonsome to wear - expecially in a jacket form rather than vest / undergarment.

When I examine the logic of why you would want a firearm in any situation - the same factors that go into carrying a firearm would seem to argue for wearing body armor also.
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Old November 21, 2011, 10:16 PM   #11
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why aren't you wearing a vest?
Well, then...why not a Kevlar GI helmet? Or at least a tinfoil hat?

Sorry, guess that's where I draw the line.

I wear a helmet and "body armor" twice a day...on my bike to/from work.

I carry a gun mostly because, after 23 years in CA and IL, I finally can, legally. I enjoy exercising my Constitutional rights. I handload because I enjoy that and I train weekly because I enjoy shooting.

I realize that it all may go bad one day, but I read enough to understand the odds and the stakes. If I were a police officer, I'd wear a vest daily. If I thought that my odds of shooting/getting shot as a private CHL holder were much above infintesimal, I'd put on a vest and move to Somalia (or maybe south Central LA, or DC)...where the odds actually are far better.

If you live in IL, you will walk in the door unarmed, by law. As I say, I lived there until 2004. I don't have that problem any more. And I have the patented Three Dog Alarm System.

When IL becomes The 50th State (instead of The Only State), I will consider moving back there when I retire, ten years or so from now. At least Wisconsin recently made it onto the list.
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Old November 21, 2011, 10:30 PM   #12
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Quote:
It makes even more sense than wearing a gun.
Was that a quote from Teddy Kennedy, John Kerry, the POTUS, . . . oh, . . . yeah, . . . Sarah Brady !

A vest covers some 5 to 8% of your body surface, . . . my 1911 protects 100% of my body surface.

Besides that, . . . I wore one of those things on the other side of the pond, . . . and I will say that it probably is good for those determined to build up their cardiovascular system, . . . or their leg muscles.

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Old November 21, 2011, 10:38 PM   #13
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Why do people apply black & white thinking - the all or nothing appraoch to body armor but not to their firearms?

It would be like saying -"OK if you're going to carry a gun then it has to be a S&W 500. If you're not going to carry a .50 cal then you might as well not carry anything at all."

Just because you wear body armor doesn't mean you have to wear a kevlar helmet - it doesn't follow logically. And it's not logical to say you have to wear Level III or nothing at all.

Your 1911 technically protects about .05% of your body surface - the part directly behind the grip.

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Apparently, if you carry a gun that will allow you to project force over distance against other people, it is considered to be good self protection. If you wear a vest that will help protect you when force is used against you, you are parnoid. - Double Naught Spy




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Old November 21, 2011, 10:53 PM   #14
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Expecting a gun to stop you from being shot is ridiculous. Wearing body armour doesn't stop you from getting shot, it lessons the damage from getting shot.

Face it people, Prayer, Patriotism, and a gun alone won't save you. It's the same thinking that says if no one has a gun your safe. "Wishful" something or another, is the term...
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Old November 21, 2011, 10:55 PM   #15
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I'd probably die.
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Old November 22, 2011, 03:06 AM   #16
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What would you do?

I have personally been in this situation before, It was right after I returned to the States in 2005. I came home from a friends house around 1 in the morning, and noticed my front door was open, Since I always carry, I drew my weapon, (a Argentine clone of the 1911), told my cousin who was with me to call 911, and entered the house. they must have heard me pull up, cause as I came in the front door, they were headed to the back door, I fired 2 shots, hitting one of them in the leg, the other one got away, but after the police questioned the one I shot they quickly got the other guy. That was 6 years ago, and I haven't had to Use my Pistol here in the states since... but I would in a heartbeat to protect myself, my home, Family, Friends, and anyone else that needs protecting. I think a man that will not protect himself or others is not a man. at the same time, I hope to God that I never have to take another life for as long as I live, but as i said before, I will if i have to
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Old November 22, 2011, 03:27 AM   #17
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Might be a very dangerous situation. I would dial up 011, then wait until they cleare

2 things: 1. just like the others said, a vest doesn't cover your whole body, and depending where they hit you, a leg wound can be just as deadly as a head or neck wound(which by the way, the vest doesn't protect either.), and a vest also doesn't stop all rounds... most vests that don't have inserts for plates will stop a nine Millimeter, or a .45... but a .22 can penetrate them.

As for the person who said "my 1911 protects 100% of me"... think again brother. just because you own a handgun, and have gone thru a 2 day class to receive your carry permit doesn't mean you will be able to hit the people in your home, or keep yourself from getting shot. The one time I came home and had someone in my house, the only thing that kept me from getting shot is they were too scared to shoot, when i fired they were less than 15 feet away from me, at that distance, if the burgaler decides to fight instead of run, chances are you both are going to get hit. I have had over 14 years of combat training in the Army, and been in numerous combat situations overseas. The only thing that saved me over there is the training I recieved, and a lot of good luck.

As for Calling the police and letting them handle it, by the time they get there, the Perps will most probally be gone. Like Dwight55 said, Its for situations like this that I carry, for the past 10 years, every since I Got my Liscense when I turned 21, every morning when i get dressed, as soon as i put my pants on, my pistol goes in the holster, and I do not take it off untill i get undressed at night, then it goes on the bedside table. no im not parinoid, but you are never totally safe, even in your own home. If you Carry a weapon, you better be willing to use it, if not, Get rid of it. always be ready to protect your own, thats the way I was raised. My Grandpa taught me to shoot when i was 6 years old, with the 9mm pistol my dad kept in his desk at the house. one of the first things they taught me was never touch a weapon unless you are willing to kill to protect. If you are not willing to do what needs to be done, then you have no reason to own a firearm.

Sorry for rambling, but this is a subject that i am Very passionate about.
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Old November 22, 2011, 09:42 AM   #18
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With body armor you can wear Level IIA which stops most of the calibers that ciminals commonly use. It won't stop 357 or 44 mag and I don't think it is rated for 9mm +P but it stops standard 9mm & 40 cal, 38 spl, 380, 32, 25 etc..

Count00 Do I have to worry about a BG wearing body armor that will stop my 44 Spl hollowpoint rounds? As for wearing body armor myself, I had to wear flight jacket and helmet all time in vietnam, and once again am carrying a gun, but I admit, I am too lazy to wear body armor. I am uncomfortable dressing in heavy clothes, so I know I would not be comfortable in body armor.
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Old November 22, 2011, 10:15 AM   #19
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AK103 makes a good point. The dog better be in the window barking at us. He has 2 jobs (besides being a lovable family pet). Warn us of any unusual noises outside the house and keep undesirables away when were not home. He does both very well (maybe the first one too well) and at 140lbs, large white teeth, and a not friendly bark you can hear from the street, I think I'd just pick another house. He doesn't like strangers.
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Old November 22, 2011, 10:56 AM   #20
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Good Thought Process

Count Zero: You're exactly right. If we walk in on a burglary in progress, many of us are not prepared because we're momentarily out of condition yellow (relaxed, alert). We could walk in on a burglary in progress or worse, an intruder may be holding a family member hostage.

My feelings are, even for current and retired LEOs: as we're not trained to conduct a sweep or free a hostage, we should retreat and call the police if that option is available to us. Police presence could mean surrender rather than shots fired with its unpredictable consequences.

You should be intimately familiar with how the house responds to your arrival. If the dog doesn't come to greet you, could he be locked in a closet or perhaps he was slain by the intruder? Lights on or off? things out of place? unidentified vehicle in the driveway or in front of your home? no power in home---electric meter pulled out? unidentified voices. blood stains, spills, etc.
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Old November 22, 2011, 11:39 AM   #21
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why aren't you wearing a vest?
Quote:
It makes even more sense than wearing a gun. It's legal everywhere, sets off no metal detectors, requires no skill or training, is no risk/threat to anyone involved, and is more likely to save your life, actually, considering how poor most people's skills and choices of guns and ammo actually are.
To each their own of course, but that is insane, IHMO. Walking around in your daily life wearing a bullet proof vest??



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Old November 22, 2011, 12:29 PM   #22
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Quote:
You should be intimately familiar with how the house responds to your arrival. If the dog doesn't come to greet you, could he be locked in a closet or perhaps he was slain by the intruder? Lights on or off? things out of place? unidentified vehicle in the driveway or in front of your home? no power in home---electric meter pulled out? unidentified voices. blood stains, spills, etc.
Always helps to watch for signs that all may not be well. I make it a habit to call the fiancee on my way home, if she doesn't answer, I don't necessarily freak out - she might just be in the shower or cooking me dinner

But if I get home and the doors are unlocked or anything looks amiss or the dog is behaving oddly or fiancee doesn't answer when I call out a greeting - I would start to think something was up.

Quote:
We could walk in on a burglary in progress or worse, an intruder may be holding a family member hostage.
Burglary in progress I can deal with (at least I am confident that I could), making a clean (head?) shot with a BG holding a loved one as a human shield...I'd like to say I could make that shot...
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Old November 22, 2011, 12:44 PM   #23
C0untZer0
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That is insane

How is it a sound, rational, and prudent decision to carry a firearm, but insane to wear a protective jacket or vest?

All the things that would factor into a decision to arm oneself factor likewise into using bullet and knife resistant clothing to protect oneself.

Worried about being mugged? About being car jacked? About being in a store when a robbery begins? Any reason to carry a gun also translates into a reason to wear protective clothing.

And again, there are different levels, it is not an all or nothing condition. Wearing protective clothing doesn't mean that you have to walk around looking like a member of a SWAT team 24x7.

It depends on how you think about it, or how it's done. Strapping on a LEVEL III bullet proof vest every morning as you get dressed is one thing, donning a light LEVEL IIA jacket in the fall or winter when you walk your dog or run errands is another thing.

One of the things about protective clothing is that it does it's job whether you are caught by surprise or not. Unlike a weapon, you employ it when you put it on.

If you walk into your house with a bag of groceries and a surprised burglar shoots you in the chest, well... the vest was working even if your situational awareness wasn't.



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Old November 22, 2011, 12:50 PM   #24
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How is it a sound, rational, and prudent decision to carry a firearm, but insane to wear a protective jacket or vest?
I don't think it is, however, a light, stylish IIA jacket runs a few thousand bucks last I checked. Not really in most people's price range.
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Old November 22, 2011, 01:50 PM   #25
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Aside from the Vest comments..

Quote:
A lot of people are prepared to defend their homes from invaders while they are in their homes, but how many people are prepared - mentally and otherwise to confront invaders when they return home, after being out of the house?
If I were returning home and noticed evidence of a forced entry, then I'd return to my car and call the police.

If I returned home and there wasn't any sign of forced entry (e.g. They came in through the back/side window/no strange cars parked out front etc.), then I'll find out how I'll react and get back to you.

No one can really understand how they'll react in a situation that they haven't yet experienced by simply saying "what if...then I'll do this." You have to be put into that particular situation.
Interesting post C0untZer0.
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