The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The North Corral > Competition Shooting

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old August 8, 2011, 11:59 AM   #1
kraigwy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 16, 2008
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 9,440
I think I'm about to give up semi-autos

I do a lot of action pistol shooting, IPSC, IDPA. ICORE, Steel, etc etc.

Every other week our club has one of the above matches.

I've been going over the results of my shooting over the last couple years and it appears I can shoot my M-64 revolver better then any of my autos, I can't load as fast with speed loaders. Plus a 6 shot revolver is no match for my 18 rounds Beretta, in shooting steel, but the multi-round mags is ruining my shooting.

I don't care if I win or loose, I just care about my shooting, beating my last scores.

I'm going to back off autos for a while and stick to accuracy. Might even convert my M-64 to moon clips.

Anyone else feel that multi-cap semi autos is ruining your shooting?
__________________
Kraig Stuart
CPT USAR Ret
USAMU Sniper School Oct '78
Distinguished Rifle Badge 1071
kraigwy is offline  
Old August 8, 2011, 12:19 PM   #2
MGMorden
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 3, 2006
Posts: 123
Quote:
Anyone else feel that multi-cap semi autos is ruining your shooting?
Can't say that I do. Personally while I like my revolvers (MAN its good being able to leave the range with ALL the brass I shot ), I can't shoot them well at speed. Getting a good shot with one (for me) requires either a pre-cock (slow and impractical for every shot), or slowing down so much and focusing on the trigger pull that its pointless.

Just for me, I'll shoot BETTER with the semi-autos every time. If it weren't for the brass retrieval situation I doubt I'd shoot my revolvers very often at all.
MGMorden is offline  
Old August 8, 2011, 03:12 PM   #3
mrt949
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 16, 2008
Posts: 1,465
I like shooting revolvers over bottom feeders any time. Less spray and pray.
mrt949 is offline  
Old August 9, 2011, 09:26 AM   #4
Don P
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 17, 2005
Location: Florida
Posts: 4,792
Quote:
Anyone else feel that multi-cap semi autos is ruining your shooting?
For me it doesn't matter. I'm ruining "my" shooting. I only own inaccurate guns, or is it me
If funds were better I would like to get my GP 100 machined for moon clips and give revolver a try. Can't do any worse than I do with semi-autos. I thought about red dot sights but all that will do is help me miss faster
__________________
NRA Life Member, NRA Range Safety Officer, IDPA Safety Officer
As you are, I once was, As I am, You will be.
Don P is offline  
Old August 11, 2011, 12:13 PM   #5
Jimro
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 18, 2006
Posts: 5,473
Well, you can shoot a revolver more accurately than a semi. Could be better grip and better sights.

As long as you are working on getting more accurate faster then I don't think it really matters what platform you are training on.

Jimro
__________________
"Gorsh" said Goofy as secondary explosions racked the beaten zone, "Did I do that?"

http://randomthoughtsandguns.blogspot.com/
Jimro is offline  
Old August 11, 2011, 12:28 PM   #6
spacecoast
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 14, 2009
Location: Sunshine and Keystone States
Posts: 4,114
Quote:
Might even convert my M-64 to moon clips.
I think a moon-clipped 64 would be a great idea. If you get it done, please let us know where and how much. I might convert one of mine as well. Presumably all the machinist would need is the cylinder, correct? Would the ejector rod have to be shortened as well?
spacecoast is online now  
Old August 18, 2011, 09:18 PM   #7
Hunter Customs
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 26, 2005
Location: Osborn, Missouri
Posts: 1,790
I don't know if a revolver is more accurate then a semi-auto but a revolver can be shot faster.
The reason for this is the cylinder has less travel time to the next chamber then a slide cycling a new round on a semi-auto.
Now for reloading, if you practice and get as good as Jerry Miculek you will beat a semi-auto in both cycling to the next round and reloading.
I do believe shooting a revolver can make a shooter more accurate, because you don't have the rounds to waste.
Best Regards
Bob Hunter
www.huntercustoms.com
Hunter Customs is offline  
Old August 18, 2011, 09:30 PM   #8
rjrivero
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 17, 2008
Location: NW Ohio
Posts: 1,349
I also prefer a good wheel gun to semi auto. I personally shoot my 625 in USPSA Revolver Class events. It's just more fun that way, imvho. Moon clips are the best invention since the metallic cartridge!
rjrivero is offline  
Old August 19, 2011, 01:00 AM   #9
Kimbertron
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 11, 2011
Location: Middle of nowhere
Posts: 287
Quote:
I also prefer a good wheel gun to semi auto. I personally shoot my 625 in USPSA Revolver Class events. It's just more fun that way, imvho. Moon clips are the best invention since the metallic cartridge!
'

I started a thread about .45 acp revolver a week or so ago and that introduced me to the idea of moonclips. Since then i have been seeing them mentioned alot and im really starting to concider converting my sp101 carry gun to moonclips. I saw a video of someone (forget the name ill have to look it up) shooting 6 rounds on target, reloading, then shooting another 6 rounds on target in 2.9 seconds. It seemed like an older video and alot of people probably know who he is on here. I believe he was shooting a S&W 625 but im not sure. Long story long, it impressed me as i have never been able to get very fast with speed loaders.
Kimbertron is offline  
Old August 19, 2011, 01:33 AM   #10
gunrobot
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 29, 2009
Posts: 280
I love shooting Revolvers and have been doing that for the past one year. I shoot a S&W 625 JM chambered in 45 ACP. It slows me down and makes me think about the plan and focus on accuracy instead of hosing.
gunrobot is offline  
Old August 19, 2011, 01:36 AM   #11
10-96
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 19, 2005
Location: Tx Panhandle Territory
Posts: 3,207
This thread really makes me wish my local bullseye league would start having a stock revolver only night. That would be tons of fun, and I think some of the folks in the league would get some appreciation out of it too.
__________________
Rednecks... Keeping the woods critter-free since March 2, 1836. (TX Independence Day)

I'm going to use the words "clip" and "Long Colt" every chance I get. It grinds my gears to see new members attacked when we all know dang good and well what's being refered to.
10-96 is offline  
Old August 19, 2011, 08:06 PM   #12
rjrivero
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 17, 2008
Location: NW Ohio
Posts: 1,349
Jerry Miculek

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimbertron
I saw a video of someone (forget the name ill have to look it up) shooting 6 rounds on target, reloading, then shooting another 6 rounds on target in 2.9 seconds. It seemed like an older video and alot of people probably know who he is on here. I believe he was shooting a S&W 625 but im not sure. Long story long, it impressed me as i have never been able to get very fast with speed loaders.
No doubt Jerry Miculek. A freak of nature, that man.
rjrivero is offline  
Old August 19, 2011, 10:00 PM   #13
T. O'Heir
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 13, 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 3,257
"...don't care if I win or lose...just care about my shooting..." Throw in having fun and you're all set.
"...a revolver can be shot faster..." Nonsense.
"...on target in 2.9 seconds..." Jerry Miculek for sure, but he uses speed loaders.
"...as good as Jerry Miculek..." Classy guy, but a buddy of mine beat him in a man-on-man at Second Chance, long ago. Jerry had his hand out in congratulations before my buddy knew he had won. Class.
__________________
Spelling and grammar count!
T. O'Heir is offline  
Old August 20, 2011, 12:36 AM   #14
Kimbertron
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 11, 2011
Location: Middle of nowhere
Posts: 287
Quote:
"...on target in 2.9 seconds..." Jerry Miculek for sure, but he uses speed loaders.
Quote:
No doubt Jerry Miculek. A freak of nature, that man.
Yup that was the one i went back and checked the name. Dont know if using speed loaders makes it any less impressive . Either way, that video lead me to many other of people competing with revolvers in compititions that i thought people only used semi autos for. I will admit im a bit sheltered in my corner of the world as i dont know alot of these big names in shooting. I guess that means i need more shooting buddies haha. Just started up another semester of school though so looks like ill be waiting until next summer to try a compitition. Time to buy some electric heated gloves for sub zero temp shooting and practice this winter.
Kimbertron is offline  
Old August 20, 2011, 08:50 AM   #15
Hunter Customs
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 26, 2005
Location: Osborn, Missouri
Posts: 1,790
Quote:
"...a revolver can be shot faster..." Nonsense.
"...on target in 2.9 seconds..." Jerry Miculek for sure, but he uses speed loaders.
Sorry, but it's not nonsense that a revovlver can be shot faster then a semi-auto.

As for Jerry Miculek using speed loaders, that may have been true at one time.
However at the last American Handgunner World Shootoff I competed in, Jerry was using a revolver with moon clips.
No matter what Jerry uses the man is fast and good, this holds true with whatever firearm he shoots.

T. O'Heir, I take it you are a pin shooter?
Of all the different types of competition I've shot pin shooting is the one I miss most.

Best Regards
Bob Hunter
www.huntercustoms.com
Hunter Customs is offline  
Old September 4, 2011, 02:42 PM   #16
EdInk
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 27, 2009
Posts: 3,967
Miculek has used moonclips for at least the better part of a decade, probably even longer.

The revolver being faster than an auto depends on the guns in question. However, it is definitely the exception to the rule.
__________________
Sic Semper Tyrannis
EdInk is offline  
Old September 4, 2011, 05:32 PM   #17
wncchester
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 1, 2002
Posts: 2,832
"I think I'm about to give up semi-autos"

Okay. ??
wncchester is offline  
Old September 4, 2011, 11:03 PM   #18
1SOW
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 2, 2007
Location: South TX
Posts: 269
kraigwy:
Quote:
Anyone else feel that multi-cap semi autos is ruining your shooting?
Keep shooting both.

"ARE YOU READY? STANDBY....BEEP" With action shooting, speed/time is a big issue in most scenarios. The "balance" between speed and accuracy drives the score. "Knowing" you have a high-cap mag may be a big part of the problem.

Try shooting your "pistol" slower. Purpously go for the same sight pic you get with your revolver and methodically press the trigger and then transition to the next target and do exactly the same. Think "every shot matters". Shoot with a slower rhythm. Do not double tap. Use a paced rhythm. Pop...pop.....pop...pop. When you have a 3yd point-shoot target blast away; but anytime your using the front sight be methodical and return to the pace.

Your times will(/maybe) slow down but your hits should improve. Practice the pacing using dryfire at home. When you get better than 90% "A-Zone" hits, speed up just a little with a slightly faster rhythm until you get back to 90% A-Zone hits, then slightly speed up again, etc. Pop..pop....pop..pop Your pacing will eventually catch up to your accuracy. Both can then start to improve.

Steel plate especially, use a rhythm/pace, ride the recoil to the next plate. EVERY shot matters. 6 plates = 6 shots, right?

Now that I've said all this, I'm not a great action shooter. I know some that are pretty good, and I'm regurgitating what they try to drive into my old brain. I may not have said it as well as they did/do.

Hope this helps.
The Brianenos forum has lots of good info on the mental and physical parts of the games.

Last edited by 1SOW; September 4, 2011 at 11:16 PM.
1SOW is offline  
Old September 5, 2011, 11:17 AM   #19
MLeake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
Depends on what you are competing in, I guess.

IDPA, extra rounds can be a gotcha, if you don't listen closely enough to the RO. If it's "Limited Vickers" instead of "Vickers" for the stage, then each extra round fired is a 5 second penalty... And each extra hit on target means the highest scoring one isn't counted, IE you take a time hit AND get your lowest hits scored.

I didn't understand the difference between "Vickers" and "Limited Vickers." Penalties suck.

Now, for unlimited Vickers, extra capacity is a good thing.
MLeake is offline  
Old September 5, 2011, 01:22 PM   #20
MrBorland
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 31, 2007
Location: NC
Posts: 1,814
Quote:
Now, for unlimited Vickers, extra capacity is a good thing.
eh...how so? Maybe if you think make-up shots are a good thing. A makeup shot is better than a miss, but many semi-auto shooters often take makeup shots whether they're needed or not. Or, they shoot a little sloppily because they have the capacity for makeups.

Here's the thing is, though; they're not free. Each one adds time, so a capacity advantage that allows one to get away with, say 6 reloads per match instead of 7 (wheelgunners) is insidiously chipped away by extra shots. Then they're surprised when a revolver shooter does well. What no one seems to realize is that at an IDPA match, the stages really aren't long enough for a good wheelgunner to be at a real disadvantage, compared to the semi-auto guys. For example, when I shot Expert in SSR, I was finishing with the top CDP Experts and right in with the ESP & SSP Experts. As an SSR Master, I do just as well against other Masters.

Unfortunately for many wheelgunners, they don't often see it this way, either, and they all too often buy into their own self-limiting "wheelgunner narrative" - that they're at a disadvantage, or matches aren't "revolver-friendly".

To Kraigwy - I dunno. The revolver has been good to me, and it seems to help my semi-auto shooting. As you know, revos teach the fundamentals well. I feel very fortunate to have (accidentally) started with one. A few weeks ago, I bought a Glock to try my hand at SSP. I took it to the range, dry fired it for about 10 minutes & worked on some "dry" reloads. Then, against the timer, I found I was immediately faster with it than with my revolver I'd worked so hard at being proficient with. Later that week, I shot a match (had to shoot unclassified) with it and was 2nd overall by 0.04 seconds. With a little practice I think I can kick some butt with it, and I have the wheelgun to thank for that. OTOH, I can see that too much of it might not be a good thing either. But I'm not worried, as there will always be room in my holster for a revolver.
MrBorland is offline  
Old September 5, 2011, 01:34 PM   #21
MLeake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
MrBorland, I should say, for unlimited Vickers extra capacity can be a good thing.

If one misses a shot, which I know should never happen, but if one does, one can take an extra shot without a reload.

Also, if one sees one has a -3 hit, but can hit the -0 in one second, one has saved two seconds on the score.

I prefer not taking extra shots, either. Unfortunately, the one time I took one (failed to see I had in fact hit the target...) was in a limited Vickers stage, before I knew what "limited Vickers" meant.
MLeake is offline  
Old September 5, 2011, 11:15 PM   #22
Dragline45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 30, 2010
Posts: 2,460
I really believe all the revolver shooting I have done has made me a better shooter, the double action trigger and low round capacity really make you focus more on your fundamentals for each shot. I started off with revolvers so learning to shoot with a double action trigger pull on every shot made the transition to any semi-auto a breeze. I'ts funny because some of my buddies who don't shoot revolvers complain about the double action pull on some of their semi autos but since im so used to shooting revolvers its never given me a problem.
Dragline45 is online now  
Old September 8, 2011, 09:54 AM   #23
S391
Member
 
Join Date: November 19, 2008
Posts: 49
I've been shooting my S&W 625 JM exclusively for the last year and I have one more match to shoot with it in early October then I'm switching to my 1911. I have enjoyed shooting my revolver, and it has helped my shooting, but I'm ready for a change.
S391 is offline  
Old September 9, 2011, 04:46 PM   #24
joe41146
Junior Member
 
Join Date: September 9, 2011
Posts: 1
My approach, for what its worth

My K38 has a 9" sight radius and when the targets are in 3s thats what I use. When scenario targets number in 4s and 5s I grab the 1911 with 10 round mags. It just depends on what you are comfortable with. Not what anyone else uses!!!
joe41146 is offline  
Old September 11, 2011, 08:36 AM   #25
Gerry
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 24, 2010
Location: Canada
Posts: 382
Anyone employing the "spray and pray" technique means they are simply not calling their shots when they have to. Makeup shoots cost time, not just in the extra shot and split time, but possibly because unplanned shots might force you to add a reload that you also didn't plan for. That can mean the difference between first and last place.

The only reason you should shoot a 3rd shot is because your sights were not on that A zone when your gun went off. Yet there are those who practically empty their guns in rapid fire on a single drop-turn target. If you've practiced properly, whether you have 100 rounds or 1 round shouldn't make any difference in the placement of your shot.

Someone here mentioned Brian Enos, and in his book "Practical Shooting - Beyond Fundamentals" he talks about focus types in which he describes 5 different types of acceptable sight alignment and follow-through scenarios based on the difficulty of the shot. Obviously partially obscured targets at 25 yards require a different level of sight alignment and focus than multiple targets 10 feet in front of you. And this should be reflected in your split times.

This is why when practicing target transitions it's very important to also vary the distances - like putting the left target at 5 yards, the middle at 25 yards, and the right at 10 yards. Use a timer and take whatever amount of time and focus is necessary to shoot all A's, using Virginia count -2 shots per. While working up your time, actually record your split times and notice the differences between the transitioning times required on the close targets as well as the followup shot. Usually you'll improve your time very quickly at first by mostly shortening the transition and split time to the closest target - Brian Enos focus level 2. Once even that's achieved, you'll already have learned to instinctively apply different focus types to the situation at hand.

I only squeak by as a B level shooter according to my last four qualifiers, but I was a really bad D just last year until I decided to get professional instruction, and buy some videos and books and practice the heck out of it.
Gerry is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:21 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.18691 seconds with 9 queries