The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Skunkworks > Handloading, Reloading, and Bullet Casting

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old October 28, 2011, 04:11 AM   #1
xMINORxTHREATx
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 25, 2010
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
Posts: 286
9mm handload questions.

Hey ya'll. Been a little bit since my last post but here I go again.

I just plunged into reloading with a buddy, and we have *almost* everything we need for serious reloading. I'm using virtually all Hornady equipment, Lock N Load AP Progressive, Cam-Lock Trimmer, Tumbler, Sonic Cleaner, blah blah blah.

We decided to start with 9mm, which is (from what I have seen) one of the least commonly reloaded rounds. Finding the shell plates and die sets within driving distance was a chore.

After working up a few loads, for target shooting, we know what our pistols like now. But for defensive rounds, I'm not sure what to make. Here is what I whipped up first.

147 grain boat-tail hollow point Hornady XTP
4.2 grains of Alliant Power Pistol
roughly 850-875 fps


This is just off the top of my head, and here is my reasoning.
It might be fairly slow for a 9mm, and I COULD make it slower but I fear that it wouldn't have power enough to properly cycle, but it is a 147 grain bullet. That is a big bullet for 9mm, and it has a decent sized opening, and from what I've seen, great expansion properties.
BUT, could I go slower? I haven't seen what my gun will take yet, but I was wondering if you guys had any opinions. (S&W M&P Pro, by the way.) I'm looking to make a round that will expand well enough, but not be blindingly bright at night, deafeningly loud in a hallway, or over penetrate through the building, etc. I know Hornady's manual list the lowest powder charge for that round at 3.5 grains, but again, I'm worried about cycling issue. I guess the only way is to try, but if you have some info that will save me a headache or three, it would be uh-per-she-ate-id.
__________________
Glaine ár gcroí
Neart ár ngéag
Agus beart de réir ár mbriathar
xMINORxTHREATx is offline  
Old October 28, 2011, 04:22 AM   #2
OEF-Vet
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 23, 2011
Location: Backwoods, PA
Posts: 284
For legal reasons you should always use factory loads for self defense. It has nothing to do with reliability as some would assert as I have never had a hand load fail in my FNP9 or my Hi Point 995 in the 5,000 or so rounds I have loaded, but for the liability reasons that some lefty lawyers have conjured up.
OEF-Vet is offline  
Old October 28, 2011, 06:45 AM   #3
hornady
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 6, 2009
Location: SWPA
Posts: 428
In that there are two schools of thought on hand loads for self defense loads, I would not download them. If you ever did need to use them a ballistics investigation would ensue and downloaded ammo could cloud the events, as to just how far from the bad guy you actually were at the moment the shot was taken.
hornady is offline  
Old October 28, 2011, 07:18 AM   #4
Mobuck
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 2, 2010
Posts: 2,287
Personally, I don't use 147 for SD in 9mm pistols. My tests indicate the 147 has more penetration and less expansion than I desire. My fulltime carry is 124 grain GoldDot standard pressure ammo which has given me adequate performance from a 4" barrel.
Going slower is likely to produce even less expansion and end up with a fmj like performance. If that is the end result, why not use fmj from the beginning?
Mobuck is offline  
Old October 28, 2011, 08:20 AM   #5
Jim243
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 5, 2009
Location: Just off Route 66
Posts: 4,577
Quote:
I'm looking to make a round that will expand well enough, but not be blindingly bright at night, deafeningly loud in a hallway, or over penetrate through the building, etc.
Only way to do that is with a sound suppressor on the barrel. Can you down load, yes. Will it function in your pistol, maybe.

Depending on how new or used your pistol is and how often the recoil spring has been worked, will depend on how much you can down load that round.

You have two things working against you in doing this. All pistols are tuned at the factory for commercial ammo, so that they function reliable (no FTF, FTE) and that accuracy is acceptable.

Since each pistol is different, the only way to find out is to try it in YOUR pistol. But a reduction in powder will reduce effectiveness of that round and decrease it's penitration and accuracy.

Good luck
Jim
__________________
Si vis pacem, para bellum
Jim243 is offline  
Old October 28, 2011, 08:34 AM   #6
oneounceload
Junior member
 
Join Date: April 18, 2008
Location: N. Central Florida
Posts: 8,518
Since when does a pistol bullet have a boat tail?
oneounceload is offline  
Old October 28, 2011, 09:03 AM   #7
hornady
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 6, 2009
Location: SWPA
Posts: 428
Good catch one, I read his load data and missed the boat tail part, must have been a typo by the op.
hornady is offline  
Old October 28, 2011, 09:46 AM   #8
oneounceload
Junior member
 
Join Date: April 18, 2008
Location: N. Central Florida
Posts: 8,518
HP bullets need speed to opn and expand on impact - drive it TOO slow and it won't happen
oneounceload is offline  
Old October 28, 2011, 12:16 PM   #9
xMINORxTHREATx
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 25, 2010
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
Posts: 286
Boat tail was NOT a typo. lol
http://www.hornady.com/store/9mm-.355-147-gr-HP-XTP/

I know that to really get a quiet round I need a can, but I've noticed that the WWB ammo had a noticeable amount more kick, flash, and bang compared to my Hornady Critical Defense rounds, and I assumed its because they are lower powered. I could be wrong, and maybe it's just that they use a more efficient powder or I'm just crazy. lol

So you guys don't think the 147 grain HP will expand enough at speeds less than 1000fps? Should I drop down to the 124, 115, or even 90 grain XTPs, and bump up the speed? I want to avoid over penetration as much as possible.

Legal issues aside, I might just keep using Critical Defense or TAP, but it would still be nice to know.
__________________
Glaine ár gcroí
Neart ár ngéag
Agus beart de réir ár mbriathar
xMINORxTHREATx is offline  
Old October 28, 2011, 02:40 PM   #10
hornady
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 6, 2009
Location: SWPA
Posts: 428
Not a boat tail, big difference between Bevel base and boat tail. A large hollow point would defeat the boat tail concept.
hornady is offline  
Old October 28, 2011, 05:43 PM   #11
xMINORxTHREATx
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 25, 2010
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
Posts: 286
What's the difference then? Because when I order the bullets, the code says XTP BTHP, and BTHP to me has always been boat tail hollow point.
__________________
Glaine ár gcroí
Neart ár ngéag
Agus beart de réir ár mbriathar
xMINORxTHREATx is offline  
Old October 28, 2011, 07:31 PM   #12
hornady
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 6, 2009
Location: SWPA
Posts: 428
Look at the link you gave.
http://www.hornady.com/store/9mm-.355-147-gr-HP-XTP/
hornady is offline  
Old October 28, 2011, 08:26 PM   #13
IllinoisCoyoteHunter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 23, 2008
Location: Southern Illinois
Posts: 1,505
Thats for long range 9mm shootin!
__________________
~~IllinoisCoyoteHunter~~

~NRA LIFE MEMBER~
~NRA CERTIFIED INSTRUCTOR~
IllinoisCoyoteHunter is offline  
Old October 28, 2011, 09:16 PM   #14
1SOW
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 2, 2007
Location: South TX
Posts: 269
Quote:
I'm looking to make a round that will expand well enough, but not be blindingly bright at night, deafeningly loud in a hallway, or over penetrate through the building, etc
9mm penetrates sheetrock, 2x4's and wood/vinyl/aluminum siding. Brick/rock will stop it, usually.
Hollowpoints need speed to open up.
Supersonic rounds are especially loud/ear damaging. Unless you're going to practice or fire frequently indoors without hearing protection, you won't care about the noise when the time comes to use it. We're talking life or death here.
Muzzle flash does vary from powder to powder.

I'd say this a "Catch-22" load search, but you CAN try to minimize the bad, but can't sacrifice needed performance to do it. A "well-placed" 147gr HP that doesn't open all the way, WILL do the job.
Load your rounds in three or four increasing loads and test them as best you can at the range. Your confidence is at least as important as the load itself.

A tried and true commercial cartridge will eliminate the guesswork for SD purposes.

PLAN AHEAD. Carefully examine your residence. Where will you 'probably' be if a bad incident happens? Where will your family members be? Which directions are safest to shoot, and where should YOU be to do it?

When all this goes out the window, fall back on "lot's of practice". Dry fire at home, and use live fire at the range.

I use standard velocity 124gr HP and/or 125gr "target" HPs and hope I'll never need them in a bad situation. ALL you can do, is give it your best 'shot'.
1SOW is offline  
Old October 28, 2011, 09:35 PM   #15
xMINORxTHREATx
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 25, 2010
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
Posts: 286
I agree 100%, I hope I never have to use them.

I'm not worried about my hearing but the tiny little ears of my 1 and 3 year olds, and unfortunately due to the layout of the house, will always be less than 40 feet from where I would be firing in a home invasion scenario. I've looked at all the possibilities and the over penetration concern is for the bullet leaving the body and MAYBE having a 1/1000 chance of hitting the wall perfectly and exiting the house to injure someone else or damage property. The house next-door is extremely close.


So the link doesn't say boat tail, but still. Whats the difference between bevel base and boat tail?
And the boat tail is negligible anyways, its just that its the only 147 grain XTP. I know that they are for long range, and the boat tail is pointless for what I'm shooting, but its what they make.
__________________
Glaine ár gcroí
Neart ár ngéag
Agus beart de réir ár mbriathar
xMINORxTHREATx is offline  
Old October 28, 2011, 10:14 PM   #16
oneounceload
Junior member
 
Join Date: April 18, 2008
Location: N. Central Florida
Posts: 8,518
MY 9mm guns prefer 124 grain bullets for accuracy, not 147s - you might try some

9mm is a high-pressure round - if you want to lower some of those aspects, try the 45ACP, or a low-velocity 38
oneounceload is offline  
Old October 29, 2011, 07:09 AM   #17
hornady
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 6, 2009
Location: SWPA
Posts: 428
Just my opinion but I believe Hornady Developed this particular bullet with a bevel base to improve expansion at lower FPS, reducing barrel drag with a heavier bullet, less bullet surface making contact as it goes down the barrel.
The whole concept of Boat tail Bullets is to improve BC, in the limited reading I have done on boat tail bullets. The best design would be a bullet pointed on both ends but this is not possible.
Boat tails stabilize bullets by cutting down on drag. But when you put a large hollow point on the nose, the small amount of bevel on the base would mean nothing to BC.
Boat tail bullets are excellent for long range rifle, 300 plus yards. My entire rifle shooting is limited to 200 yards and flat base bullets work just fine at these ranges.
But then again this is my opinion, others may have a better reason why Hornady decided to Bevel the base of this bullet.
hornady is offline  
Old October 29, 2011, 09:28 AM   #18
xMINORxTHREATx
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 25, 2010
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
Posts: 286
I'm not opposed to using different calibers, but my wallet is. haha
That does bring me to another question. I always hear that .45 ACP is slower and won't over penetrate, but if you look at the FPS they list for some of the rounds, the difference is only 200 fps. Which if they were the same weight bullet, it would make a difference, but if a 124 gr round cooks at 1100 fps, and a 200 gr round goes 900 fps, in my mind the heavier round will still penetrate more because it's so much heavier. Say a Cadillac and a F350 are going at 65 and 55 mph respectively, and they both hit the brakes at the same point, wouldn't the truck go farther before stopping? I could be wrong, and I know you can get different velocities, but the lowest I've seen for 9mm was around 975, and for .45ACP was 850. (147 gr and 230gr) so there isn't that much of a difference in speeds.


Quote:
Not a boat tail, big difference between Bevel base and boat tail.
You still haven't explained the difference. I know that I don't NEED a boat tail for my purpose, but like I said, they don't make a 147gr XTP with out the boat tail, and I don't think that it's going to hurt as far as I know. Again, I understand the concept of boat tails cutting drag because it creates less drag by affecting the low pressure area behind the bullet. And hollow points, renamed open-tip match bullets, and used more often in high accuracy applications (when a plastic tip isn't used) because the concentricity of the bullet has a far greater effect at the tip than it does in the middle, and it's rather difficult to make a perfect tip, even with plastic. Albeit, that is in rifle rounds, but at the same time, Hornady lists the ballistic coefficient of their HAP (Hornady Action Pistol) rounds which are XTP hollow point without the grooves in the cavity, as being the best they have for 9mm. Even greater than their FMJ round nose rounds. So I will go with the data from the manufacturer, and trust their numbers.


But all of this is besides the point, 147 grains at 875 fps WON'T expand all the way? I know that it will still hurt like hell, but if it won't expand, then I might go with a slightly faster load with the 124gr so that it has less mass that has to be stopped, therefore (on my train of thought) less over penetration.
__________________
Glaine ár gcroí
Neart ár ngéag
Agus beart de réir ár mbriathar
xMINORxTHREATx is offline  
Old October 29, 2011, 10:31 AM   #19
hornady
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 6, 2009
Location: SWPA
Posts: 428
The Speer Gold dot a 9MM plain base 147Gr,HP bullet. Needs speed to get the full effect of their hollow point, as I said the bevel base Hornady, was designed for expansion at lower FPS. Hornady XTP HP claims to do what the Gold dot will but at lower velocities. How this is accomplished would be a question for Hornady development
hornady is offline  
Old October 29, 2011, 11:09 AM   #20
chris in va
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 26, 2004
Location: Louisville KY
Posts: 12,549
Quote:
For legal reasons you should always use factory loads for self defense
Cite any case law on that?
chris in va is offline  
Old October 29, 2011, 01:06 PM   #21
hornady
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 6, 2009
Location: SWPA
Posts: 428
Chris I seriously do not think you will ever settle this on a Forum, the top two guys on Defensive shooting can not agree on the use of reloads, Masaad Ayoob is opposed, where as John Ross states as long as loaded in accordance to standard reloading practices. It would be no different than the use of a hollow points instead of hard ball ammo.
So the debate continues.
hornady is offline  
Old October 29, 2011, 01:08 PM   #22
xMINORxTHREATx
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 25, 2010
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
Posts: 286
I'm not asking how that is accomplished.
I was asking for you to explain the difference between bevel base and boat tail, because you said there was a big difference between the two. I would just like to know what that difference is.

Chris, here is what I have found in a short google spree.

http://www.boiseshooters.com/index.p...ic=1883.0;wap2

http://www.gunatics.com/forums/gener...mas-ayoob.html
__________________
Glaine ár gcroí
Neart ár ngéag
Agus beart de réir ár mbriathar
xMINORxTHREATx is offline  
Old October 29, 2011, 01:59 PM   #23
hornady
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 6, 2009
Location: SWPA
Posts: 428
Boat tail bullets are pointed or Truncated cone which a large hollow point is not. The pointed or Truncated cone with a boat tail improve BC . Bevel base bullets are also used in some cast bullets to aid in reloading. I am not a engineer for Hornady, and I do not know why they chose to use a bevel base on a Hollow point bullet. I do know the Bevel base of this bullet would do nothing to improve the bullets BC. It may be this design was used for no more reason than to aid in the loading on a progressive press.
If this is eating you this much why not just send Hornady an e-mail.
hornady is offline  
Old October 29, 2011, 04:11 PM   #24
xMINORxTHREATx
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 25, 2010
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
Posts: 286
It's not eating at me.... I was just asking WHAT THE DIFFERENCE WAS and you finally explained the difference. I believe what you are trying to say is that a "boat tail" and "bevel base" are the same thing on the base of the bullet, but "boat tail" means its not a hollow point, and therefore it's a "bevel base?"


And yes, reloading them without a bullet feeder is a thousand times easier, haha.
__________________
Glaine ár gcroí
Neart ár ngéag
Agus beart de réir ár mbriathar
xMINORxTHREATx is offline  
Old October 29, 2011, 09:59 PM   #25
1SOW
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 2, 2007
Location: South TX
Posts: 269
Quote:
That does bring me to another question. I always hear that .45 ACP is slower and won't over penetrate, but if you look at the FPS they list for some of the rounds, the difference is only 200 fps.
I'm not into pistol ballistics, but have one experience that that I found significant. My son has a service model XD 45. In his garage he had an N.D.. He has since learned safer 'dry fire' and gun handling procedures.

The Wal-Mart value, pack 230 gr FMJrn, 45 cal went through a thin layer of sheetrock and into a 2x4 edgeways at almost point blank range. It penetrated about 2 1/2" into the 2x4.

I know from using 2X4 lumber frames at a range that the same Wal-Mart Value pack in Win 115 gr 9mm will easily go through an edgeways 2x4 and much more.

This proves nothing, but does make me believe the 45 acp doesn't 'penetrate' as easily as a 9mm.
1SOW is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:59 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.13279 seconds with 7 queries