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Old October 26, 2011, 02:43 PM   #1
Nanook of the north
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springfield vs remington 700

I own a sporterized 1903 Springfield it has a synthetic ramline stock on it and the brand "High Standard " barrel. I was thinking about buying a Remington 700 in 7mm mag i was just wondering if it would be better to hold on to the Springfield or get the 700.
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Old October 26, 2011, 02:51 PM   #2
Mobuck
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BOTH
While the 03 was a great rifle in it's time, the Rem 700 is made of better material and stronger. I own both of these models and would hate to part with any of the ones I have. The 7mag has slightly greater range while the 06 offered the possibilty of heavier bullets having a larger frontal area. The 7mag ammo costs more in most places but both have a wide variety of factory ammo to choose from. Six of one and 1/2 dozen of the other. If I could only have one I'd have to flip a coin.
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Old October 26, 2011, 06:44 PM   #3
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I agree. BOTH.
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Old October 26, 2011, 07:23 PM   #4
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I would keep the Springfield, but I would also try and buy the 700 too....
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Old October 26, 2011, 07:51 PM   #5
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I would rather have the Springfield.
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Old October 26, 2011, 08:08 PM   #6
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The Springfield is one of the all time great firearms. These were virtually hand built by master machinists. Made from billets of steel. No pot metal, investment casting, stamped tin parts, or plastic. These were over built to survive war conditions and have the ability to be completely disassembled in the field. These were also what is known as a controlled round feed, meaning that as soon as the cartridge starts to leave the magazine it become trapped under the extractor. This feature is highly desireable feature. So many modern guns are built cheap and fast since they actually only get used a few times a year and in ideal conditions, unlike guns built for war.
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Old October 27, 2011, 02:25 AM   #7
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Get the 700 if you want one, but know the 03 Springfield is in another realm of solidity of construction altogether.

I have owned a 700 in the past, in 7mag, and it was quite serviceable, but has a fused bolt, not solid machined steel, like the Springfield, and washered recoil lug. The 700 isn't alone in this feature, the Savage, Brownings, and Tikka all have fused or hollow bolts and iffy recoil lugs IMO. They are all known for their accuracy, but I won't own one in a magnum rifle. I own Weatherby's, Cooper, and Ruger bolts, all solid and integral. This I insist on, because I reload for 300WBY, 340WBY amoung others. I demand solid everything, and since I'm the one paying for it, I get what I want.
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Old October 27, 2011, 08:46 AM   #8
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Never known a 700 to be built with "Pot Metel" let's not exaggerate to make one seem better than the other. If the 03 were in original condition I would say keep it, but since you are going to be hunting with it and not storming the beaches at Normady, I say 700.
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Old October 27, 2011, 09:30 AM   #9
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Always nice to see the sum total of some internet misinformation. First the '03 really is a magnifgicent piece, no doubt. Second, for the folks that think they know about 700's, a couple facts. There's a reason most modern benchrest actions are derived from the 700 action, it's based on strenght and inherint accuracy. There is no mass produced action in the known galaxy proven stronger. Anybody know where they pressure test for failure? Well it's a guess from the factory because the known equipment does'nt go that high but the range for full size cartridges is thought to be between 200,000-250,000 psi. Try that with an 03 or any other for that matter.
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Old October 27, 2011, 10:18 AM   #10
Nanook of the north
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OK guys thanks. Does anyone know where i can get a safety conversion for the Springfield?
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Old October 27, 2011, 10:48 AM   #11
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In each design departure from M98 Mauser features, the 03 Springfield is inferior. Shooter safety features are virtually non existent, I believe in one of PO Ackley’s blow up tests the firing pin shot out and would have killed a shooter. The two piece firing pin design is just awful. I have had firing pin tips break, collars, and cocking piece shafts break. I am using the broken cocking piece shaft as a punch. I have had ejectors break, extractors break, probably some other parts but cannot remember.

The action has the cone breech and the case head is just hanging unsupported out of the barrel. Any breeches in the case head will result in massive gas escape into the shooter’s face. You can go to the Springfield Armory web page and look at blow up pictures of 03’s. When these things come unglued, stock fragments, metal fragments just go every where.

The single heat treat and double heat treat receivers were made out of plain carbon steels that today are used for rebar. No one today would make such a safety critical part from inferior materials with such low ultimate and yeild strengths. The nickel steel receivers are better, the best 03 receivers would be the Remington early ones.

The design committee that came up with the Springfield should have just copied the M98 Mauser, instead they went their own way and missed the mark completely.

In every aspect the Remington is a better design and a safer design.

At a local match the Gunsmith Match director told me of idiots who load such hot loads in their Remingtons that they can't get the bolts open. These fools then use a hammer on the bolt handle and it snaps off. The bolt handle is brazed on. The gunsmith preferred forged bolt handles, but I told him maybe that was a good thing the handles are brazed on as the fools don't need to replace the entire bolt, only need to have the handle welded back on.

Given that he has to unscrew the barrels to remove the cartridges and bolts from these rifles, I suspect had these reloading fools fired their mini nukes in a 03, they would have ended up in the hospital, not at his door.
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Old October 27, 2011, 12:04 PM   #12
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I would say both. the rem 700 is a fine weapon but the 1903 is one of the most iconic military rifles of all time. even if it is a sporterized model it will still be a family heirloom for years to come
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Old October 27, 2011, 01:11 PM   #13
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do both. I have a springfield that has been sporterized, stock, drilled and tapped, new barrel in the 60's I think. The springfield I inherited and I used it a couple times on deer. It shoots about 1MOA but is heavy and i accidentally flipped the switch to make a single shot. I hit a deer and went to follow up and luckily I didnt need a second shot otherwise I would have been screwed. collector value has been wiped out with the tapped receiver but I still love the rifle. I dont think I am going to take her hunting much but I wouldnt get rid of her for anything. The values arent going down on them so hang on to it.
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Old October 27, 2011, 01:11 PM   #14
Clifford L. Hughes
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Nanook of the North:

I have a 1903A3 Springfield, four grove barrel, rechambered to 308 Norma Magnum with a fancy myrtle wood stock. It is glass bedded and has a muzzle break. The 1903A3 shoots 1 1/4 inch groups consistently. Occasionally, it will shoot one inch groups.

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Old October 27, 2011, 01:38 PM   #15
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Keep the springfield!
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Old October 27, 2011, 03:11 PM   #16
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There's a reason most modern benchrest actions are derived from the 700 action, it's based on strenght and inherint accuracy.
Always make me laugh when I see someone post something like this...

You might want to let all of those people who have a modern benchrest rifle using a 700 action with all the bells and wistles of top quality parts hand fitted by the world's best gunsmiths, that they all keep getting beat by a factory built rifle costing 5X less, that anyone can purchase.... Savage

Not saying the Savage Action is better or worse...

A lot of people will argue that the Winchester 70 actions are superior to the 700's in every aspect...

My point is, just because something is widely used, doesn't mean it's the best there is or ever will be...
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Old October 28, 2011, 09:28 AM   #17
tim s
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I'd suggest the reading for understanding classes. I said BASED on the 700's meaning they follow the design features because of the points I made. I own Viper, Farley, and BAT action guns..... all based on 700 design, shoot IBS comp. matches and I guarantee you one thing, you will never see a Savage at the line let alone win anything.I got zero idea what happens at club matches in Texas but I can guarantee you what you stated does not happoen anywhere in NBRSA or IBS matches throughout the US. What is also the single most inherintly accurate, strongest factory produced rifle ever produced in the history of factory rifles? Why it's the venerable Remington 40X which is based on what???
What also is the single most copied action by the guys making modern CNC versions such as Kelbly's, Stiller, 10x, Borden, Nesika, etc, etc.

As too the "lot of people" model 70 opinions, essentially they extract better with large bore rounds...that's it. If they were better in every respect, don't you think we'd see somebody making modern clones?

Last edited by tim s; October 28, 2011 at 09:43 AM.
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Old October 28, 2011, 12:32 PM   #18
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all based on 700 design, shoot IBS comp. matches and I guarantee you one thing, you will never see a Savage at the line let alone win anything.I got zero idea what happens at club matches in Texas but I can guarantee you what you stated does not happoen anywhere in NBRSA or IBS matches throughout the US
Again, you are mis-informed and a short search would prove so...

http://www.savagearms.com/news/article/?id=3ij567qnL
"Team Savage and their Model 12 target rifles have won so many long-range competitions (many over shooters with custom rifles costing thousands of dollars more than theirs) that they have lost count … Seriously."

http://www.savagearms.com/news/article/?id=1DoKxAoZh
"Team Savage started its 2010 season in grand fashion, winning the F T/R National Championship team competition by besting all others in the 600 and 1,000 yard events, and establishing an new 1,000-yard record of 778-21X. That would seem hard to top. But that is exactly what they did at the last two major matches of their season."

Doesn't look like the lack of the 700 style action slowed them down any...
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Last edited by precision_shooter; October 28, 2011 at 01:01 PM.
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Old October 28, 2011, 01:24 PM   #19
tim s
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BENCHREST there sport not F class, tactical, T/R, wannabe sniper BS, BENCHREST...the most precise rifle game in the galaxy, utilizing the most precise rifles. Get a copy of Precision Shooting magazine, study up, learn a bit.
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Old October 28, 2011, 07:38 PM   #20
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Ive got both as well, and both are 30-06. I dont think I could part with either one. I just got the 03 A3. and shes a pretty thing to me. Whats bad is now I want a garand and a carbine. to go with the 03 A3
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Old October 28, 2011, 09:46 PM   #21
.300 Weatherby Mag
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strongest factory produced rifle ever produced
The Weatherby Mark V might have something to say about this... I'm not going to argue about the inherent accuracy, because that is true...

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Old October 28, 2011, 11:26 PM   #22
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Nanook, I can sympathize with your dilema. I too have been looking at the Remington 700 Sendero in 7mm Mag. for a 500 yard rifle. I don't have a '03 Springfield but I do have a .30-40 Krag-Jorgenson that's been sporterized. I prefer to keep the old military rifles in "as issued" form, even though I'm getting to the point where seeing the tiny rear notches is tougher and tougher each passing year.

I concur with those above who recommend keeping the Springfield and also getting a new rifle, unless you absolutely have to part with it in order to get the new one.

While a new rifle would be great, I sometimes think that my interests and hobby would be better served by spending the money picking up an '03 Springfield, an 8mm Mauser, and maybe a Mosin-Nagant to boot. They would have to be the right rifles, not sporterized or hacked up. Worn, dinged, dented, showing signs of service, that's all fine with me. It adds character. I'd just give them a good cleaning and shoot them some. I have a thing for the old military stuff....
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Old October 29, 2011, 09:25 PM   #23
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keep the 1903. Despite its faults, it is still a fine rifle and worthy of heirloom status. Your kids will thank you for keeping it.

Precision shooter: F class is definately not the same as bench rest. Not tring to flame you, but as an ibs competitor, I have never heard of a savage rifle in an ibs competition.
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Old January 10, 2012, 10:31 AM   #24
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revive thread

this is an old thread, but it pops up as a top hit on google searches, so it's well worth reviving. I am doing do because the rifles mentioned in it, I own all 3, the Remington 700, Weatherby Mark V, and (2) Springfields. Many good questions were raised, here is my take on it.

You can't go wrong with the Remington 700 for the money, in 30-06. I picked up a used ADL for only $275 with a scope, made in 1970's. The Remington action if far stronger than the Springfield, and inherently the Remington is more accurate, with modern steels. It is push feed but also has the "3 rings of steel" design that the Weatherby Mark V has. This is nothing new, just a reintroduced old design from the late 1800's. Actually if you look at the lowly MOSIN NAGANT you'll see a recessed bolt head just like a Remington or Weatherby has. One reason why the Mosin is also very strong.

The Remington 700 can withstand a 30 caliber bullet being fired through its 280/7mm caliber bore. The story is popular on the net, some guy loaded his Rem 700 280 caliber with one 308 round in the magazine, and on the 2nd shot chambered the 308 and fired it. The larger case taper enabled it to go off, and jammed the gun. He sent it back to the Remington factory. They took it apart, and duplicated the process on another new gun they had, and took measurements. The 30 caliber bullet was swedged down to 28 caliber as it left the bore at over 4700 fps, and 170,000+ psi or more. The gun survived and once unjammed and the case removed, was fully functional. Remington changed out either the barrel or bolt as a safety consideration and returned it to the owner.

If you did that with a Springfield, the tapered breach would allow the case head to explode and fracture, and shower your face with brass, powder gas, and most likely pieces of the brittle old Springfield receiver.

Then someone mentioned the Weatherby Mark V. The Weatherby Mark V, is even STRONGER than the Remington 700. The Mark V has 9 locking lugs, and when Roy Weatherby tested and designed it, he wanted it to survive 200,000 psi. He fired the test rifle 15 times, with a 150 grain bullet lodged in the bore, and fired another 150 grain bullet into it. He did that 15 times and took measurements. He then moved up to a 180 grain bullet and did the same thing, a 180 grain slug stuck in the bore, then shot another 180 grain bullet into it, both bullets exiting the bore each time, and did that 15 more times. He took measurements again. The headspace only opened up ONE THOUSANDTH of an inch, that's .001" from all that abuse.

A Springfield would have gone off like a pipe bomb on the first shot.

Now the kicker. The Springfield I have, some old guy put in an early Weatherby stock, from when Weatherbys were built on a Mauser action in the 1950's. It looks even better than the Weatherby Mark V in the same stock. And the Springfield looks WAY BETTER than the relatively homely looking Remington 700 ADL with it's pressed machine el cheapo checkering.

The 2 piece firing pin can be a real nightmare if it breaks, on the Springfield. At the local gun shows now, they are selling a "Springfield Survivor Kit" - that's what they call it- and inside is a one piece firing pin. My Springfield also has what appears to be an early Mauser 1891-1896 type bolt shroud and cocking piece, which really makes it look way better than the Springfield cocking piece. A Springfield Sporter done right, is one long legged beauty of a gun, even if you never even shoot it. Sort of like a hot looking blonde who can't cook, clean, do dishes or bills, sits around useless watching TV all day, but looks great and is really good at only one thing. (smirk)

I'll post some pictures of the guns I'm referring to. My Springfield has a Timney trigger as well, and very crisp trigger pull, not spongy- even though it still retains the 2 piece firing pin. If you shoot a Springfield, don't use brass that's been reloaded a lot, because if you get a case head separation in the brass, you're going to get a facefull of gas and metal pieces, or worse. The case head is just hanging out of the chamber with no real metal protection around it.
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Old January 10, 2012, 10:36 AM   #25
MR.MILSURP
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Weatherby Mark V torture test

To say a Remington 700 can match up to a Weatherby Mark V, is just not highly probable, and most likely impossible. This is what Roy Weatherby did when testing his Mark V.

The Springfield would not have a chance of surviving this. Actually the Springfield is weaker than a Mauser 98 or Enfield Pattern 1917. Ackley's test showed the Springfield blew up first, followed by the Mauser 98, and the Enfield P17 lasted the longest, but after those 3 blew up, the Remington 721 (i.e. 700) was still going strong. So the Remington is stronger than any of the Mauser type military turnbolts by a measurable margin. How the Remington stacks up against the Japanese Arisaka Type 99 or Type 38, I don't know. That would be interesting information to glean.

Anyway here's the Mark V proof tests:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weather..._Mark_V_Action

Proof Testing of the Mark V Action

Weatherby had intended that the new action would be the safest and strongest bolt action available. The rifle was marketed as the "The World's Strongest Bolt Action." The Mark V action has been tested to be able to contain up to 200,000 psi (14,000 bar) of pressure.[4]

The testing of the rifle was conducted on a production rifle chambered for the .300 Weatherby Magnum. Before testing was to be conducted very thorough measurements of the rifle were taken so as to provide a benchmark for the testing which was to be undertaken.[5]

The first test was conducted using a 180 gr (12 g) bullet propelled by 82 gr (5.3 g) of Du Pont #4350 powder. This load provided 65,000 psi (4,500 bar) of pressure. This load did not show any pressure or extraction issues with the new Mark V action but caused a slight sticking of the cartridge case occurred in the Mauser style rifle design. Subsequent testing was performed using the same 180 gr (12 g) bullet and using a powder charge of Du Pont #4350 which increased by increments of 2 gr (0.13 g) for each test thereafter.[2]

The second testing which was conducted with the 84 gr (5.4 g) showed no signs of pressure and issues with extraction even though the measured pressure was close to 75,000 psi (5,200 bar). Firing this load in the Mauser rifle lead to a blown primer and extreme difficulty was experienced in extracting the spent case.[2]

Using 86 gr (5.6 g) of Du Pont #4350 the cartridge began to show signs of pressure in the Mark V action. However, the case did not stick and extraction was performed easily. Breach pressure was found to be between 85,000–95,000 psi (5,900–6,600 bar). Measurements of the spent case showed that the case had stretched at the belt a mere .0005 in (0.013 mm).[2]

The spent case from the 88 gr (5.7 g) test lead to a slightly sticking case which in turn lead to a slightly difficulty in the opening of the bolt. Measurements from the case belt showed that the belt had expanded from .533 in (13.5 mm) to .535 in (13.6 mm). The pressure generated by this load was 100,000 psi (6,900 bar).

The fifth test conducted used a load of 90 gr (5.8 g) of Du Pont 4350. Firing this load lead to some difficulty in opening the bolt and the case was extracted when opened. The case of the belt still measured .535 in (13.6 mm). A difference in the diameter between the bolt head and the diameter of the barrel of .002 in (0.051 mm) per side was noted. No bulging of the bolt, receiver or the barrel was noted. Headspace was measured to be the same as prior to the testing.[2]

Further testing was conducted with a 180 gr (12 g) bullet lodged in the throat of the barrel. A cartridge loaded with the standard charge of 78 gr (5.1 g) of Du Pont 4350 and a 180 gr (12 g) was fired into the back of the first bullet. It was found that both bullets exited the barrel. The primer had been pierced and the exiting gas entered into the bolt and hitting the firing pin sleeve which was loosened slightly. The bolt was opened by hand but the cartridge stayed stuck in the chamber. When the case was tapped out it was found to be in good condition except for its pierced primer. It was found that the barrel, just in front of the receiver ring had expanded from 1.147 in (29.1 mm) to 1.1496 in (29.20 mm). The diameter of the bolt head had expanded from .7178 in (18.23 mm) to .7190 in (18.26 mm). The head space had increased from .2163 in (5.49 mm) to .2174 in (5.52 mm). All other dimensions had stayed constant. This test was conducted 15 times. A test was conducted with a 220 gr (14 g) bullet lodged in the bore of rifle and a 180 gr (12 g) grain bullet was fired into the back of this bullet. The result of this test found that the cartridge case head had expanded to .545 in (13.8 mm). After these additional 15 tests it was found that the head space was set back only a mere .001 in (0.025 mm).[2]
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