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Old October 28, 2011, 04:56 PM   #76
Slamfire
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If what you say is true, WHY DID AN INSURANCE COMPANY, IF IT WAS LEGALLY IN THE RIGHT, REVERSE THEIR POSITION WHEN QUESTIONED ABOUT THE DECISION? They agreed to pay the claim, ONCE THEY READ THEIR OWN CONTRACT.
You can only have a “Master/Slave” relationship with psychopaths.

Negotiation is viewed as a sign of weakness by psychopaths.

Corporate bullying can be profitable. What did the insurance company have to loose with bullying?: nothing. Insurance companies do this all the time, deny expensive claims and wait for the victim to spend time and money in legal fees. If only one in a hundred or one in a thousand cannot marshal the resources for the legal fight, the Corporation makes additional profit.

Why do Pizza delivery companies forbid their drivers from carrying? Pizza delivery is the fifth most hazardous job in the US. Criminals whack Pizza delivery men all the time. Here is one from the Oct 14. http://www.beaumontenterprise.com/ne...nt-2218523.php Just Google the topic to see how many Pizza Delivery men are robbed. http://www.google.com/#ds=n&pq=pizza...4&bih=616&bs=1
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Old October 28, 2011, 05:49 PM   #77
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Yes, corporate bullying is what prevents unnecessary losses of profits. Pizza deliverymen packing heat is something that will never happen, will it? such a huge liability, having those armed couriers running loose on company business.

It's rather unfortunate, IMO, that businesses can't come up with some reasonable arrangement whereby they completely absolve themselves from liability if a worker is a licensed to carry, so that worker can exercise the right to safety.

It is reasonable for a business to want to shield itself from a million dollar lawsuit because a cart pusher packing a glock in his boxers caps a "child rapist" who was actually just a strung out dad trying to jam his mentally ill adolescent daughter into a car.

It is a no-win situation. If they allow it, or even give a wink and a nod, or if they fail to discharge people who do carry weapons, they open a chink in the legal armor.

Seriously, there is no way that common ground can be reached in this legal situation, where an employer can be held accountable for the actions of their employees.

Like I said in an earlier post, the only real answer if you can't find a company that allows concealed carry, is to violate, prepare to be fired, and hope for the best.

Does it ever bother any of you guys to walk into a gun store and see all of the employees openly packing on their belts?

One of the companies here allowed employees to carry. I nearly choked one day when I went in and saw a guy I knew in there with an 8 inch barreled revolver, probably a colt python hanging on his belt. The guy was a nut, I'd known him for years, and I would never have even gone to a range with him, much less worked next to him if he was armed. He was working there part time.

He was a student teacher, and I believe pretty strongly that he packed a large pistol in his brief case to class. This was back in 1977, so teaching wasn't a terribly hazardous job.
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Old October 28, 2011, 06:24 PM   #78
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I had to come back in here and mention something

LAWS are not what people are talking about breaking here. It is not ILLEGAL to carry in most places where it's just against company policy.
One more time for the cheap seats: YOUR BOSS CAN'T THROW YOU IN JAIL FOR BREAKING HIS RULES.
Federal property? That's a lot different. We're talking about LAWS vice "rules". You guys are acting like sheep. Do you all really follow every single "RULE" your boss enacts at the workplace? Honesty here is key.
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Old October 28, 2011, 06:37 PM   #79
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keep in mind that some states have some pretty broad legal restrictions to where you can carry. here, only professional LE officers are allowed to carry weapons into govt buildings, not employees, and they will be prosecuted as this is specifically covered by law. I believe that a ban on carrying into places where alcohol was served was tried here but failed.
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Old October 28, 2011, 06:53 PM   #80
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Quote:
brickeyee wrote:

Have you ever had a job?

They can enforce it if their is not a state law preventing them.

"We need to search your car."

Answer no and you can then be fired.

Answer yes and have them find something prohibited and you can then be fired.

Is that enforceable enough?


I can field that situation!

Employer: "We need to search your car."

Employee: OK, but you need to get a warrant and do it legally.

Employer: Your fired!

Employee: OK, Put it in writting that you fired me because you refused to do a legal search.
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Old October 28, 2011, 07:21 PM   #81
steveracer
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And ten you ave a valid

wrongful termination suit.
This of course would cost your employer enough that maybe the lesson would be learned.
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Old October 28, 2011, 10:06 PM   #82
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Quote:
Employer: "We need to search your car."

Employee: OK, but you need to get a warrant and do it legally.

Employer: Your fired!

Employee: OK, Put it in writting that you fired me because you refused to do a legal search.
Except if it was in your employee manual which you signed and therefore agreed to - you would have NO case and NO job

Quote:
wrongful termination suit.
This of course would cost your employer enough that maybe the lesson would be learned.
Wouldn't cost me a cent - and if that is your attitude towards other's rights, I would not have you as an employee
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Old October 28, 2011, 10:20 PM   #83
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Employee: OK, but you need to get a warrant and do it legally.
That's not how it works at all in a "right to work" state with an "at will" employer.

An employer doesn't need a warrant to legally search your car. Just like the police, they can ask permission to search your vehicle and if you say yes then the search is legal.

You don't have to say yes in either case, but if you refuse to give your employer permission to search your vehicle while its parked in the employer's lot in a right to work/at will employment state then he can legally fire you for your refusal.

You can always sue, but the courts haven't taken the employees' side in any of the cases I'm aware of. So you'd just compound your financial difficulties by adding legal bills to pay on top of being unemployed.

One option is to park off the employer's property. The employer can counter by making it against official company policy to park off the property. Like my employer does.

Another option is to change employers. Obviously that's not an attractive option in today's economy.

Another option, if there's sufficient support, is to get a law passed that makes it illegal to fire an employee for having a legally possessed firearm in a locked, private vehicle that's parked in the company lot. That's been done in Florida, Oklahoma and Texas, possibly elsewhere. Interestingly enough, the employer can still fire you for refusing to allow the search, but if he finds a legal firearm he can't fire you for that.

Of course, from a practical perspective, an employer in a right to work/at will employment state can always fire you for something else and then it would be up to you to prove that you were fired illegally for having a firearm in your vehicle and not for some other reason. If you couldn't then you'd be without a job and with legal bills on top of it.
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Old October 28, 2011, 10:45 PM   #84
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I live in Texas where our government has made it ILLEGAL for an employer to tell you such things as it should be. God bless our state on this issue <...deleted...>

Last edited by JohnKSa; October 28, 2011 at 11:16 PM. Reason: .
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Old October 29, 2011, 01:49 AM   #85
therealdeal
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serf'rett

Quote:
As a side note, if carrying, you must notify the occupant and ask permission to enter a private residence (this can be entertaining).
this is only the case when they have a sign, right? I understood the business part you mentioned just before my above quote, but I am getting at the private home bit. It isn't an issue where I live(I must leave if informed to), but I didn't think there was a law for what you mentioned in the quote above.

Lastly, I think you are correct about respecting the laws of military installations. One would be ill-advised to think it would be ok to skirt that law if they don't have a legal reason. There access laws can change frequently depending on what level of threat the country is on too(like whether a license is enough to get on with a vehicle sticker), but the firearm bit is pretty solid.
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Old October 29, 2011, 01:55 AM   #86
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barbilly

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Speaking only for myself and making no judgments of anyone else's choice.
my situation is that I work in a location where it is legal to carry concealed and I am licensed to do so. I work second shift from noon until 9pm. supervising a cleaning and maintenance crew. The buildings we service are in a higher crime area of a mid-size city. As the supervisor I'm required to be the last person to clock out, and walk to my truck alone every night. The company has no written policy against concealed carry. During my time with the company the issue has only come up once. My boss and I are on friendly terms and in a conversation regarding my former employment as a police officer I mentioned that I have CCW and do occasionally carry. He replied, "Not at work though, right?". I answered "no sir" and that was the end of it. I guess you could say that officially the company doesn't even have a verbal policy against it. Because of the conditions stated above and the fact that I am a single parent I do at times carry at work even though I'm well aware it is frowned upon by my employer. Given the choice of using deadly force to protect myself from death or grievous injury and bleeding out on a cold dark sidewalk because some dirtbag decided to mug or carjack me, all I can say is I hope he kissed his mother good-bye before leaving home. If I did lose my job over such a situation I would surely miss it, but not nearly as much as my son would miss his Dad. If that philosophy makes me a bad guy in the eyes of some of you so be it.
I agree with this post. It is amazing how close you came to having to decide to respect your boss and just continue to mind your own business(or even possibly having a verbal policy or maybe a written one initiated).
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Old October 29, 2011, 07:31 AM   #87
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Seriously, there is no way that common ground can be reached in this legal situation, where an employer can be held accountable for the actions of their employees.

Like I said in an earlier post, the only real answer if you can't find a company that allows concealed carry, is to violate, prepare to be fired, and hope for the best.
Right, but this does not make the business psychopathic as claimed. Just because you don't like how a business is run doesn't mean that the business decision isn't a good business decision. Not all good business decisions are the right human decisions. Funny how that works. That is part of the reason none of us are paid as much money as we want to be paid.
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Old October 29, 2011, 07:48 AM   #88
RaySendero
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oneounceload wrote:Location: N. Central Florida
Regarding a wrongful termination suit.
This of course would cost your employer enough that maybe the lesson would be learned.

Wouldn't cost me a cent - and if that is your attitude towards other's rights, I would not have you as an employee

I would hope that your employees would show you the same respect for your property that your showing for their's!
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Old October 29, 2011, 08:47 AM   #89
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If I worked for an employer who cared about such things, I'd probably carry an LCP in deep concealment where there was no chance of it accidentally being exposed. Then I'd put an Obama sticker on my car, and whenever coworkers bring up the subject of firearms in casual conversation I would bring up the subject of all the children needlessly killed by those evil guns.
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Old October 29, 2011, 09:22 AM   #90
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I fired a guy who carried at work. It was a large big box retail store. A customer reported it to me. If you dont like the rules go work some where else. I carry but not at work. In that type of setting seeing armed staff makes people very nervous or upset to say the least. It was in a nice area of town and never had any problems. If you dont like the rules they have then dont work there. I would NEVER ask to search a car. I dont car what they have in their car. Nor would just about any other workplace uless you work at a nuke plant or the pentagon or any other super high security place. Who here has had their car searched at work
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Old October 29, 2011, 09:32 AM   #91
WANT A LCR 22LR
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" One option is to park off the employer's property. The employer can counter by making it against official company policy to park off the property. Like my employer does. "

Does you employeer give any reasons as to why this rule exists? What if someone drops you off at work , take a bus or taxi, does the bus have to stay in the lot?
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Old October 29, 2011, 09:35 AM   #92
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I had a altercation with a customer at work that could have gone real bad,and my pistol was in my truck thirty feet away.That's when I decided to get a CHL. My employeer said they don't think firearms should be at the workplace. I replied...If the situation arises again and I am denied the right to carry my legally concealed firearm and I am killed.....I hope you like my wife...cause she'll be your new partner. I now carry a Ruger LCP in my hip pocket and spare clip in my front pocket.
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Old October 29, 2011, 09:45 AM   #93
WANT A LCR 22LR
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. . hit send too soon. .

I see two seperate carry / in car carry situations.

High risk of BG attack and low risk.

High risk would be somewhere that no or minimal screening of people occurs and there are no real laws that can put you in jail for carry. The no carry rules exist in a optimistic attempt to prevent robberies / attacks. I would rather see a rule that prohibits offensive use of weapons while allowing defensive use.

Low risk would be a fed building with metal detectors / mil base / high security facility where those that enter are screened and the chance of a being a victim of street crime is nonexistent. Violating a carry rule here can get you sent to jail.
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Old October 29, 2011, 10:00 AM   #94
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The obvious solution is to lobby for laws preventing such employer discretion. Those opposed can join the companies in opposing such for venial, monetary concerns.

Note companies have to follow all other sorts of mandates. The right to protecting one's life trumps protecting the boss' finances in most moral philosophies.
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Old October 29, 2011, 10:05 AM   #95
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Quote:
Employer: "We need to search your car."

Employee: OK, but you need to get a warrant and do it legally.
Only if your employer is the government.

It is "at will employment" not "right to work."

"Right to work" deals with required union membership.

At will employment is used in most states, but a contracts can still exist, and some states have 'public policy' exceptions (you cannot fire an employee for certain specific things that are 'public policy').

Unless their is a state law protecting you, your employer does not need a warrant to search your car that is on his property.

In an 'at will' state absent a contract you can be fired for almost ANY reason (the employer must not discriminate against 'protected groups' though).

Failing to allow a search that you most likely put on notice about in the employee handbook is grounds for termination;

Insubordination is ground for termination.

You can also quit at any time without notice (though you may have a hard time getting a decent reference) if you do not have an employment contract and are 'at will.'
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Old October 29, 2011, 11:32 AM   #96
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Yes, employers make those rules for their buildings, company cars and parking lots.

Simply stated this is usually not the employer's rule per say. It is likely a rule forced on them by their insurance policies or legal team. So they post, add it to the manual, etc.

Now, let's look at enforcement. They rarely enforce these rules because of the implications. For example, they have a right to search all cars, but never search inner circle management cars. Even if I say Joe has a gun in his car, they will likely not forcefully search Joe's car. They won't because it brings up the question why they don't search all cars. I guess what I'm saying is the to defend a policy, you have to prove that you are enforcing it consistently. Likely Joe will be fired because he is late 2 days in one month, his management doesn't like him, and he was seen or reported to have been carrying a gun on company property. He will be fired for attendance because they have fired regularly for that. His management not liking him will be the driver for enforcing attendance. The gun thing will be backup if he proves in court that the attendance thing is BS.

Related to search requests. ALWAYS say NO if you have something to hide. Being fired for saying no to a search will open up their policy books and enforcement record to your legal team. Since in most states it is difficult to fire for something other than attendance and continuous insubordination, they will likely not go through with the firing. They will likely resort to a lesser punishment and keep you on. Still, your management will not be on your side at that point, so you have to get another job in the next 3 months or you will find issues with insubordination, expense reporting and attendance which you didn't know you had.

I'm sorry that this is how we live. The reason you always say no to the search is that being fired for refusing a search is much easier for your legal team to defend. I'm not a lawyer, so take this for what it is worth. It doesn't take a lawyer to see that they must show consistency in the policies or they are being used to create a harassing work environment. "Why are you singling me out and harassing me?," is a great question to ask when this comes up. In general, the law is on the employee's side related to issues of discrimination and creation of a harassing work environment.

Admin people are very well trained on these boundaries and will work slow to build a "firing" case. You need to be slow and thoughtful about answers you provide them as they will all be used against you.

Good luck and make good choices.
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Old October 29, 2011, 12:06 PM   #97
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Suing your employer sounds dandy after you are fired but:

1. Who is paying your lawyer? Will a lawyer take your case on contingency?

Probably not - the big bucks are in large class action suits.

2. Your company has resources to keep you in court for quite a long time. Who is paying the bills then? You have to eat. Who will hire you in the mean time?

If you make money on another job - your damages are limited to the little time you are out of work. Not much to go on.

We've talked about the lawsuit threat before - it is not an easy road as nonlawyers speculate. That's why we had our lawyer members analyze the threat. Look at the time and energy in the Walmart gender discrimination cases.

You going to take on a large company by yourself?

Nope - again - the solution is legislative action.
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Old October 29, 2011, 02:42 PM   #98
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I guess what I'm saying is the to defend a policy, you have to prove that you are enforcing it consistently.
No, they can decide based on a rumor to search any car they wat, and only that car.

This is not law enforcement or discrimination.

They are allowed a huge amount of latitude in what they do, as long as it is not discrimination against a' protected class.'
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Old October 29, 2011, 05:32 PM   #99
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Everybody wants to sue. Suing is like winning the lottery if you win. JACKPOT!

Of course nobody really wants to put in the time to lobby their state and federal representatives for changes in the law. Such law changes could take years and years and several sessions of congress. That might take too much time and they want to win their jackpot now!

Instead of suing the company or changing the law to make carry at work legal by choice over the wishes of business which business (especially rich and powerful big business) will fight tooth and nail, it might be a lot easier to change the law such that businesses are not liable for the use of firearms carried legally by employees. Absolving the businesses from liability would go a long way toward many businesses allowing such weapons at work and businesses may be inclined to support such legislation because it reduces their encumberance.
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Old October 29, 2011, 09:42 PM   #100
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LAWS are not what people are talking about breaking here. It is not ILLEGAL to carry in most places where it's just against company policy.
One more time for the cheap seats: YOUR BOSS CAN'T THROW YOU IN JAIL FOR BREAKING HIS RULES.
Federal property? That's a lot different. We're talking about LAWS vice "rules". You guys are acting like sheep. Do you all really follow every single "RULE" your boss enacts at the workplace? Honesty here is key.

If you worked at the post officer = law cannot carry
work at a fast food place/big box mart = policy

Policy doesn't put you in jail, its law. As others state what do you risk, your life or your job?

I know one guy he works on base which you cannot carry. He told a story once to some others and I, he came off base once and his check light came on he went to the nearest gas station and some guy randomly came up to him, he put his hand in his back pocket to reach for a "gun" which he didnt have. The guy said CHILL OUT! and left. You don't know when something will happen or not, you may never need your gun, you might be on your way home from work and trouble strikes. You dont know.


I almost had to use my gun a few times already(on animals/wild animals) I know a guy who was with his friend, both of them got attacked and they had to draw. The people got arrested (they where drunk) I forget the whole story but there was like 6 of them and 2 or 3 got arrested.
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