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Old October 27, 2011, 10:47 PM   #51
mdd
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Brian, there is no way to tactfully say this so i'll just say it: what you just stated is one of the most pathetic things I've ever heard. To think you would honestly compare a job...a simple means of generating income...at the same level as your very existence. I can't help but pity you right now.
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Old October 27, 2011, 11:11 PM   #52
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I agree with the comment that, the house sets the rules. But perhaps you can park off property?
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Old October 28, 2011, 12:56 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdd
Brian, there is no way to tactfully say this so i'll just say it: what you just stated is one of the most pathetic things I've ever heard. To think you would honestly compare a job...a simple means of generating income...at the same level as your very existence. I can't help but pity you right now.
I'm sorry, but this post was unneeded. It's rather disgusting to kick a man who's on the ground. If not, do you think maybe that just simply saying what he did he's dealing with enough?

Life is worth more to some than others, as here I have argued that a dogs life is worth no less than a mans. Maybe you haven't lived in a car. Maybe you don't know what it's like to starve. Maybe, for all you know, his family is/was all in that same boat. Losing the ability to support ones self much less a family is painful, beyond what some can even understand.
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Old October 28, 2011, 04:06 AM   #54
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Brian, there is no way to tactfully say this so i'll just say it: what you just stated is one of the most pathetic things I've ever heard. To think you would honestly compare a job...a simple means of generating income...at the same level as your very existence. I can't help but pity you right now.
It wasn't just a job. it was a career that I loved with a passion. My company closed, and over the next 25 years my wife and I raised a disabled daughter on a fraction of that income, and I did what I could until I became utterly unable to continue working outside my home. I work part time now telecommuting. Sometimes people just get broken when pressures are piled on too deep. I've done the best I could.

Don't pity me, do something to keep the next poor fool from getting broken. You may save his life, and gee, you may save the lives of maybe a dozen coworkers.

All the threads here that talk about how to kill the guy who's been driven to the limits and goes after his "enemies" with a weapon to avenge how his life has turned out, and never, ever, have I heard serious discussion about how to help keep people from reaching that point.

When was the last time you saw a coworker struggling with a problem, and put serious effort into helping him solve it? Or are you one of the people who files complaints against the crazy guy in the next cubicle, and thus becomes a potential target?

If you've listened, I've said over and over, tactical observation also needs to lean towards prevention. Keep the desperate men from reaching bottom, and there will be fewer murders of desperation among family and in the workplace.

You know that this is true. Ignore it or embrace it. It appears that you do worse than ignore it, you slap it in the face.
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Old October 28, 2011, 05:21 AM   #55
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Thank you for saying that, Brian. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, as my mom used to say.
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Old October 28, 2011, 06:46 AM   #56
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My mother always said that about condoms. Not when I was a teenager and needed them, usually when I was a kid and misbehaving.
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Old October 28, 2011, 08:37 AM   #57
nice shot
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@blackfeather

Also, would a knife be a viable tool you can carry, if not have you considered improvised weapons inside the store?

Bad idea. If he isnt an experienced knife fighter I doubt hes going to do much good with one in a fight. Same for improvised weapons. He might get some lucky cuts or hits in, but with no training or skill thats not as helpful as pointing a gun and ending the problem.
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Old October 28, 2011, 08:57 AM   #58
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Brian, there is no way to tactfully say this so i'll just say it: what you just stated is one of the most pathetic things I've ever heard. To think you would honestly compare a job...a simple means of generating income...at the same level as your very existence. I can't help but pity you right now.
To carry or not to carry a gun is a personal choice. I certainly can see how some people place extremely high values on their careers. There's a huge difference between devoting the majority of your life to career you are passionate about, and working a 9-5 job just to pay the bills.

If you are Space Shuttle astronaut who has devoted his entire adult life to being able to fly Space Shuttle missions, are you going to disregard the "no firearms aboard the Space Shuttle" policy? Yeah, it's like that.
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Old October 28, 2011, 09:00 AM   #59
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Brian, there is no way to tactfully say this so i'll just say it: what you just stated is one of the most pathetic things I've ever heard. To think you would honestly compare a job...a simple means of generating income...at the same level as your very existence. I can't help but pity you right now.
To carry or not to carry a gun is a personal choice. I certainly can see how some people place extremely high values on their careers. There's a huge difference between devoting the majority of your life to career you are passionate about, and working a 9-5 job just to pay the bills.

If you are Space Shuttle astronaut who has devoted his entire adult life to being able to fly Space Shuttle missions, are you going to disregard the "no firearms aboard the Space Shuttle" policy? Yeah, it's like that. Since when are we, as gun owners, expected to make the preservation of our own lives from an attack by thugs our primary purpose in life?
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Old October 28, 2011, 09:35 AM   #60
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Let me get to my point, my employer specifically states in their SOP (standard operating procedure) there are no weapons allowed on the premises at all. Not even a CCW weapon in youe vehicle. So what can you do in this type of situation? I always stay alert and aware of my surrondings but what if the situation presented itself where I needed to defend myself? Are there any viable options?
You are in a difficult situation. Your employer is a Corporation, which is solely focused on maximizing profits. Corporations act exactly as psychopaths, no guilt, no shame, people, the world are disposable in the attainment of their goals. As lawsuits are expensive, they cannot endorse employees using lethal force at the work place. Employee’s killed by criminals are a law enforcement matter, the burden of which is carried by society, so in the cold logic of a financial statement, dead employees are cheaper than dead criminals.

In fact dead employees may be very profitable. You may not have heard of dead peasant policies, but a large number of corporations are taking life insurance policies on their employees, with the corporation as the beneficiary. http://deadpeasantinsurance.com/what...ant-insurance/

So you are between a rock and a hard place. We all need an income, but your employer may have a profit motive in making you dead.

You have to decide whether your loyalty to a Psychopath extends to the loss of your life.
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Old October 28, 2011, 09:45 AM   #61
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I doubt most employees are worth having insurance on. Where I work, the corporation doesn't even insure the single owner.

Say, by the way, how do you folks decide which laws to obey and which to ignore? I realize that there is such a thing as civil disobediance but that's on the left side of the aisle, I think.
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Old October 28, 2011, 10:52 AM   #62
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I wonder why mega-corporations are like that? I wonder if it has to do with shareholder profit expectations? I wonder who the shareholders are? Hm.

I didn't realize I was becoming a psychopath when I formed my corporation. Maybe I shouldn't be paying unskilled people 30% over minimum wage for jobs a 12yr old could do?

I guess I'm not a very good psychopath.
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Old October 28, 2011, 11:06 AM   #63
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Corporations act exactly as psychopaths, no guilt, no shame, people, the world are disposable in the attainment of their goals.

I have never heard a better description of big business. when no single person is responsible, people will do terrible things. (see "war" for examples)

A guy here was nearly killed when the tornado went through joplin. he worked at a group home for mentally disabled men. With the storm bearing down, he threw a mattress on his charges and weighted it down with his body, and the building was shredded around him. he was dead center of the worst hit section, and thrown more than 50 feet, iirc. he was there, working, on the job. His medical bills are at 2.5 million so far. The insurance company that covers the home's employees refused his claims.

You guys know as well as I do that they wouldn't get away with it, they would be sued, they would lose, and face serious repercussions, but that company still decided to take the wild chance that they would get away with refusing his claim. The reason they gave was essentially that just being on the job wasn't enough, and that they didn't have to pay when it wasn't a work related accident.

Still, they each and everyone bought themselves a century or two in purgatory, just on the wild chance that they would be able to save the company some money.
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Old October 28, 2011, 11:07 AM   #64
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You are in a difficult situation. Your employer is a Corporation, which is solely focused on maximizing profits. Corporations act exactly as psychopaths, no guilt, no shame, people, the world are disposable in the attainment of their goals. As lawsuits are expensive, they cannot endorse employees using lethal force at the work place. Employee’s killed by criminals are a law enforcement matter, the burden of which is carried by society, so in the cold logic of a financial statement, dead employees are cheaper than dead criminals.

In fact dead employees may be very profitable. You may not have heard of dead peasant policies, but a large number of corporations are taking life insurance policies on their employees, with the corporation as the beneficiary. http://deadpeasantinsurance.com/what...ant-insurance/

So you are between a rock and a hard place. We all need an income, but your employer may have a profit motive in making you dead.

You have to decide whether your loyalty to a Psychopath extends to the loss of your life.
Sounds like class and wealth envy mixed with some unreal paranoia here...WOW......this ranks right up there with carrying while in the shower as somewhat over the top...........
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Old October 28, 2011, 11:18 AM   #65
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There's nothing incorrect about what he said. refer to walmart firing security guards who disarmed a shoplifter that had a gun drawn and aimed at another security guard. The thief might have killed all three. the company policy is to not resist, and run away if a gun comes out. one of the three was under the threat of imminent serious injury, and there was no chance of retreat.

Since they did not condone use of force, if the employees were killed violating policy, the corporation was innocent of wrongdoing. they had done their part. If the thief died, since the employees acted outside of policy, again, it was their fault, and the company had no liability.

just look at the black friday catastrophe in new york, if you want to see corporate psychopathology.
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Old October 28, 2011, 11:54 AM   #66
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The insurance company that covers the home's employees refused his claims.
As it should - It's not work related - must be covered by general liability insurance. Insurance is only a contract. Did you read it? No. Therefore, you are not qualified to state whether or not the insurance company is right or wrong. You simply lash out, demonize them and call them "evil" without knowing a thing about it. Pretty typical of many folks these days that want to demonize businesses without knowing a thing about what they are talking about. Its like listening to a 1st grader demonizing Calculus.
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Old October 28, 2011, 12:22 PM   #67
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Not to be one to try to stay on target, but I fail to see how some insurance company not paying a tornado claim has anything do do with the issue of employees carrying guns at work and whether it is allowed or not.

You can cite all the terrible things you want to cite about what corporations have done that you don't like and I can probably cite just as many good things, but that doesn't have anything to do with the gun issue.

A buddy of mine worked for a pawn shop that did not allow employees to carry guns at work. The store was robbed and the employee lost his gun during the robbery. It seems he left his gun over the cash drawer under the counter and the robbers took it along with the cash. He asked the owner to reimburse him for his lost gun. The owner gave him a choice of options. He could either be remimbursed for his lost gun and be fired for having a gun at work or he could keep his job and eat the loss himself. He opted to eat the loss. Go figure. He continued working for the same owner for years and now has his own shop, bought from the owner.
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Old October 28, 2011, 12:41 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nice shot
Bad idea. If he isnt an experienced knife fighter I doubt hes going to do much good with one in a fight. Same for improvised weapons. He might get some lucky cuts or hits in, but with no training or skill thats not as helpful as pointing a gun and ending the problem.
As with anything, training is key. You are right, and wrong. Not everyone is as well trained with firearms than we would hope. Gun shots don't always stop a man from pulling a trigger in your direction. There are many, MANY cases where untrained men, and even women, have defended themselves with edged weapons. You don't need much experience to do a lot.
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Old October 28, 2011, 12:52 PM   #69
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Only time I've used a knife on a living creature was before I had actually trained in Arnis.

Killed a 150lb boar with one thrust. (Lucky for me, the boar was distracted by a dog at the time.) Hog dropped immediately, and stopped breathing about 20 seconds later.

Knives may be just a bit more effective than some folks here seem to think.

Since then, I've actually trained some with knives. Get within reach, and pose a lethal threat, and if the knife is in hand, I won't bother going for the gun.

Given more heads up, I'd opt for the gun, but I wouldn't try to change weapons either way if already at point blank.
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Old October 28, 2011, 12:52 PM   #70
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A sharp sword cuts for anyone, as the saying went. However, why does Wal-Mart even have security guards in the first place, if they aren't allowed to do anything?

Referring to corporations, on the other hand, this is what they teach in business school: the purpose of every employee of a corporation is to enrich the residual owners. For a corporation, that means the stockholders. But after a while you realize that isn't so. The stockholders do not necessarily get enriched. Because the upper management essentially runs everything for their own benefit, it is they who are enriched.

So all of you anti-socialists, think twice before you let the government privatize anything.
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Old October 28, 2011, 12:56 PM   #71
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Seems to me that friends who've moved here from socialist countries (Netherlands, Russia) have had even worse things to say about the "just a cog" nature of existence where they came from.

But let's steer clear of politics, and avoid a lock, eh?
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Old October 28, 2011, 01:48 PM   #72
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Walmart has Loss Prevention. It's not quite security.

Indeed a knife can do a lot, but in the same sense as a bullet it should be well placed. Though, I'd like to see someone hold up a gun with a knife in their armpit.
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Old October 28, 2011, 03:39 PM   #73
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Interesting discussion. This past Wednesday, I was two steps from the door of a building when I saw the sign “Absolutely No Firearms Allowed in This Facility.” I had little choice about entering the building, as the location for receiving bids was on the fourth floor of same and I certainly wasn’t going to skip bidding on a half a million plus project. Walked back to the car, dumped the pistol; went in and won the bid. Our state law prohibits entry, with a concealed firearm, into a business or facility which post such notice. As a side note, if carrying, you must notify the occupant and ask permission to enter a private residence (this can be entertaining).

Our company policy manual states “Any act which may create a dangerous situation, such as carrying a weapon on … premises…” is a cause “for disciplinary action up to and including immediate termination.” Does a responsible, rational person “create a dangerous situation” by carrying a firearm? Debatable ‘til the cows come home.

Thankfully, our particular location is somewhat relaxed and no one seems to think twice about the 23” billy club leaning against my bookcase, the two foot long ¼” steel pointer beside my printer or the coworker’s pistol in their desk drawer. If I were to carry a pistol, without doing something dumb, I seriously doubt I would garner more than a reprimand if discovered. There are some benefits with my job.

When I go to military bases, power plants, refineries, industrial plants, and et cetera, I think it would be stupid to carry on site in violation of law or company policy. That’s a bad choice on a business level, for an engineer with a service company, and poor choice on a personal level.

It is interesting to observe the level of fear in some of the previous posts. The fear of being bushwhacked, assaulted, finding the burglar in the house stuff is standard forum fare, but the fear of losing a job caught my attention. I didn’t realize there was so much fear and worry connected to staying employed or being unemployed. Reading, believing and internalizing Psalms 37:23-25 helped me reduce that fear years ago.

If my employer had a clear “no firearms” policy, I would need to consider whether I would continue in their employment or find another job. Guess that puts me with the "house rules" bunch; if you don't like the house rules, find a different place to play.
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Old October 28, 2011, 03:54 PM   #74
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Speaking only for myself and making no judgments of anyone else's choice.
my situation is that I work in a location where it is legal to carry concealed and I am licensed to do so. I work second shift from noon until 9pm. supervising a cleaning and maintenance crew. The buildings we service are in a higher crime area of a mid-size city. As the supervisor I'm required to be the last person to clock out, and walk to my truck alone every night. The company has no written policy against concealed carry. During my time with the company the issue has only come up once. My boss and I are on friendly terms and in a conversation regarding my former employment as a police officer I mentioned that I have CCW and do occasionally carry. He replied, "Not at work though, right?". I answered "no sir" and that was the end of it. I guess you could say that officially the company doesn't even have a verbal policy against it. Because of the conditions stated above and the fact that I am a single parent I do at times carry at work even though I'm well aware it is frowned upon by my employer. Given the choice of using deadly force to protect myself from death or grievous injury and bleeding out on a cold dark sidewalk because some dirtbag decided to mug or carjack me, all I can say is I hope he kissed his mother good-bye before leaving home. If I did lose my job over such a situation I would surely miss it, but not nearly as much as my son would miss his Dad. If that philosophy makes me a bad guy in the eyes of some of you so be it.
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Old October 28, 2011, 04:02 PM   #75
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As it should - It's not work related - must be covered by general liability insurance. Insurance is only a contract. Did you read it? No. Therefore, you are not qualified to state whether or not the insurance company is right or wrong. You simply lash out, demonize them and call them "evil" without knowing a thing about it. Pretty typical of many folks these days that want to demonize businesses without knowing a thing about what they are talking about. Its like listening to a 1st grader demonizing Calculus.

Bull.

he was on the job, on the clock, and at the moment the storm hit that place, he was doing his job, standing right over his charges as the house was ripped apart around him.

It may have been an act of god, but that doesn't keep it from being a work related incident.

If what you say is true, WHY DID AN INSURANCE COMPANY, IF IT WAS LEGALLY IN THE RIGHT, REVERSE THEIR POSITION WHEN QUESTIONED ABOUT THE DECISION? They agreed to pay the claim, ONCE THEY READ THEIR OWN CONTRACT.

If they had even the slightest chance of winning a lawsuit, do you think that they would have agreed to pay this claim without a fight? Forget it. That company knew that a lawsuit would cost a fortune, and they would then be found in breach of contract, and liable for the full amount, plus a whole lot more.

You can bet your keister that the fireman who was struck by lightning and killed during that same night was treated under his workman's comp, before he succumbed to injuries.

That first grader remark was really uncalled for.

People who don't get this stuff never will until they wind up being the underdog.
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