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Old August 22, 2011, 10:23 AM   #1
Kyo
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flash mobs

http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/08/18/fla...html?hpt=ju_t3

Things like this is exactly why I believe people should carry. I am in my 20's. I understand that social media can be used and law enforcement is not always around. But my question would be, how does one monitor social media in order to prevent crime? And since any of us can be around when one of these flash mobs happens, how would you handle it?
Would you try to stop them if they aren't hurting anyone physically? I believe that would be my limit. If I saw a mob hurting someone, I wouldn't feel right not helping.
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Old August 22, 2011, 10:33 AM   #2
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Without endangering myself, I would help by calling 911 and being a good witness.
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Old August 22, 2011, 10:35 AM   #3
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Would you try to stop them if they aren't hurting anyone physically?
No. If they are not hurting anyone, just stealing or vandalizing, let them be. Call the police and be a good witness but stay out of their way. Mob mentality is dangerous.

As "K" said in Men In Black: "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it."
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Old August 22, 2011, 10:46 AM   #4
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The best thing to do is avoid them all together. If you see one forming, scoot in a safe direction.
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Old August 22, 2011, 10:46 AM   #5
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There's not really a clear-cut answer, in my opinion. I'm not a LEO, so I don't have a legal duty, per se, to intervene. That said, my personality type is such that if I could help, I would want to do so.

The following would be factors in the decision matrix:

1) Am I with anybody else for whom I am responsible, and if so, would assisting the victims put my people at risk? (Note: I am not counting my armed and capable friends in this part of the computation, as they are assets and not liabilities.)

2) Am I sure I know what's happening? Could it be that the guy getting beaten up just tried to mug a 94 year old WWII veteran, and the crowd caught him? (A 16yo in my area just got convicted of beating a 94yo WWII vet with a rock so badly that the old man has gone from living on his own to being stuck in an assisted living facility; the 16yo gets sentenced next week, and is eligible for 40 years - and I hope he gets every last one of them. The only reason for his brutal attack - an intended mugging.)

Under self-defense law in most of the US, if I defend a third party, then that third party would have to have been eligible for self-defense. If he was actually the instigator, I assume his liability by intervening on his behalf.

3) Is my read on the situation such that I think I can actually make a difference? I'm more interested in effectiveness than in making a last, glorious stand. It's entirely possible that in most cases I'll achieve more by dialing 911, than by directly intervening. BTW, military sentries are taught that whenever possible, they should call a situation in prior to engaging. If they don't, and they lose the encounter, the command gets no warning of whatever is coming.

4) Is the situation one where if I fire, I can do so without unacceptable increase in risk to bystanders and victims? If not, then again it is probably best to call 911.

5) How long will the response to the 911 call likely take? How likely are the victims to survive for that duration?

There are any number of other things one might consider, but to me these are the first to leap to mind.

Also, even if the decision to intervene is made, if at all possible make a 911 call first, or have a reliable person make it while you intervene.
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Old August 22, 2011, 11:00 AM   #6
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I, personally, would like to roll a few Fox Labs 6oz lock-on grenades into the fray

http://www.copsplus.com/prodnum4661.php

Quote:
Hand held units designed for throwing. "Lock-On" style for continuous discharge of contents. Ideal for control and disbursement of crowds or for securing of a confined area.
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Old August 22, 2011, 11:02 AM   #7
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I spoke with a relative this weekend about the flash mob incidents in Chicago.
He is a Chicago Police officer.

The perception is that the mobbers go from a dispersed status to a concentrated status in a matter of seconds and this is coodinated via phone or a PDA device of some kind.

The Chicago police found that the mobbers were traveling together on the CTA and Metra trains, and CPD started staging officers at the stations and whenever there were 4 or more teens - they started getting hassled, they asked for ID, were questioned about their business, where they came from, where they were going - what they were planning. And in some cases they were told to get back on the train and go home.

They also put a lot more officers downtown and did the same thing whenever they saw 4 or more teens.

If citizens call when they see a mob it is using the same technology the mobbers use.

In Chicago now- if someone sees a bunch of teens hanging around and they put in a call - the police aren't going to consider that a nuisance, they want a presence in each of those situations if possible.

Probably some innocent teens got harrassed, and I think this is a low-tech solution to a problem with a high-tech component. And teens could easily get around it by staying dispersed in transit.
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Old August 22, 2011, 11:22 AM   #8
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I think this new way of carrying out crime will probably be fought with technology.

Many banks inplemented foyers into their lobbies that could be locked remotely, so if bad guys were dumb enough to completely enter the foyer without keeping either doorway open - they could just be locked in that area.

I think store keepers will probably come up with something similar, when a store keeper sees a flash mob robbery taking place - they can just lock the store, (not fool-proof but a partial solution).

There are ways that PDAs can be used against flash mobbers but it requires LEAs to intergrate web technology within their cruisers or on their person.

It's not that hard to create a system using the Internet that is like Twitter and even have it send more than text - but send streaming video of a flash mobbing in action. The Internet identity of the sender would have the location info that police need to respond.

It's also possible to beef up the capacity of telecommunications companys' ability to track wireless devices. A lot of wireless electronic devices are frequently communicating with the network - doing health checks and house-cleaning type tasks - like synchronizing their clocks with the time server on the network. It would be possible to get a fairly good picture of who was in a given area with electronic devices, when you can do that and match up the pwners to video taken at the scene they can start using technology to nab these people.
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Old August 22, 2011, 12:22 PM   #9
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You see it all the time on the news, people getting raped, beaten, robbed, etc. while onlookers stand by and watch.

Sorry I can't do that. Sure I'll call 911, but I'm gonna step in. Not saying I'm gonna wade in "guns a' blazing" but I'm gonna step in to do what I can.

And it isn't that I'm a cop, I'm not a cop any more, I retired over 17 years ago, maybe some of my "policing" had held on I don't know.

Sure I may get hurt, or even killed, it only hurts a little while, you can only be killed once, but I have to look at my self in the mirror every day when I shave.

I recommend every one read John McCain's book "WHY COURAGE MATTERS", (it has nothing to do with politics). Its a book everyone should read, I got one for each of my kids and my grandkids will get theirs when they're old enough to understand.
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Old August 22, 2011, 12:24 PM   #10
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I have wobdered lately when "flash mobs" would become an issue in crime. Low income people with nothing to do and nothing to lose coupled together with technology...
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Old August 22, 2011, 12:48 PM   #11
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I am not massively concerned. If desired the same tools cvan easily be used to help convict the evil doers. Further, existing laws against organized crime can easily be used in these instances if the will is there to use it.
No additional laws or infringements of our liberties are required.
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Old August 22, 2011, 01:36 PM   #12
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As far as these perpatrators being "low income", some of them at least must have enough money for a cell phone and service.

I think it would be great to get a conviction under RICO for this sort of activity.

I am guessing that the parents of these teens are not very involved with their kids. It's always the same story... when the police are dealing with these delinquents the parents are no where to be found, when they do find them - they are beligerent.

But when their kid takes a bullet from a failed robbery - momma is on the evening news with big aligator tears crying "My baby! my baby!"

I have a relative who works for the Chicago Public Schools in IT (consultant), and I can tell you, it will take a long long time for the city to respond technologically to this phenomenon. They move very slowly on the tech front. Also the political machine doesn't like to part with the money for stuff like that - every dollar spent on something like that equates to a disgruntled cronie.
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Old August 22, 2011, 01:40 PM   #13
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Actually, in the ghettos, uncle sam sends you a FREE cellphone. Low income homes are always the ones with the nicest newest electronics and "toys".
Im thinking these mobs will be billed as the newest wave of "homegrown" terror.
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Old August 22, 2011, 02:18 PM   #14
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No additional laws or infringements of our liberties are required.
Amen to that!

In this mob situation, I'm high-tailing it unless I see someone in dire distress AND I believe my intervention will actually help, rather than worsen, the situation. I was once attacked by a mob in downtown Washington, DC, believe it or not. I was young(er) and dumber, for sure, and could have avoided the situation entirely had I just shut my yap.

I was utterly convinced both my fiance and I were dead. I tried to shoo her away but, God love her, she was having none of that. But after surrounding us and shieking all manner of racially-tinged deprecations and bloodcurdling threats, they stood down just as suddenly as they had appeared, and let us pass.

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Old August 22, 2011, 02:26 PM   #15
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Ive been in a similar situation. Would'nt you know my opinions are not very popular with liberal urban "demonstrators"? Facing a mob is always a scary proposition. Thats what sucks about these flash mobs. Its not a bunch of folks gathering in a central place. Theyre descending upon unsuspecting crowds and places.
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Old August 22, 2011, 02:31 PM   #16
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I thought they just danced. Doesn't seem that threatening to me. I'd never shoot a guy dancing. It just seems wrong.
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Old August 22, 2011, 02:44 PM   #17
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Unless he's a really bad dancer, or had a living will stating something about "death before disco" of course.
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Old August 22, 2011, 02:49 PM   #18
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Where are all the so called "Sheepdogs?" In some similar posts most have said they would call 911 and be a good witness.
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Old August 22, 2011, 02:51 PM   #19
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Its not the lady gaga imitators we're discussing. Its the hoodie wearing gangster wannabe teens who commit ceimes using flash mobs. And they did cross the line from robbery to assault. From what I saw anyhow.
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Old August 22, 2011, 03:46 PM   #20
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And I thought a flash mob was a bunch of streakers. In any mob situation it is best to get away and call 911, get involved with that many and you may be overpowered.

Now lets all do a flash mob 21 gun salute
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Old August 22, 2011, 04:17 PM   #21
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I have wobdered lately when "flash mobs" would become an issue in crime. Low income people with nothing to do and nothing to lose coupled together with technology...
Then how so many of then afford the latest smart phones, and other electronic devices?
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Old August 22, 2011, 04:25 PM   #22
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I have several thoughts on this: first most gang members and the associates have their own style of dress and attitude, if I were to see groups of folks dressed in thug clothing with an attitude I would start looking for a safe way out. Second I would not hesitate to call 911 and report what I observed. Third unless I had someone with me I had to protect I want to believe I’m with Kraigwy, was a cop to long not to try and help someone who’s life I believed was in danger. I’m not sure where or what that line is I’m going to cross.
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Old August 22, 2011, 04:33 PM   #23
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Agreed. Not hanging around in bad company is the first step to avoidance.
And once again. These kids and young adults all have smartphones and devices. And satellite tv. And sometimes even a Benz. They steal!! Those of us who work have to save our money to buy things, but when uncle sam sends you and your family members your own checks and cell phones and give you everything it seem to cause reckless spending. Thus the "need" to steal or commit various other crimes.
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Last edited by zombieslayer; August 22, 2011 at 04:40 PM.
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Old August 22, 2011, 04:40 PM   #24
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I'd never shoot a guy dancing. It just seems wrong.
You obviously never saw disco.
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Old August 22, 2011, 04:49 PM   #25
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As far as these perpatrators being "low income", some of them at least must have enough money for a cell phone and service.
Quote:
Actually, in the ghettos, uncle sam sends you a FREE cellphone
Don't forget the free air time.


Here in the Pawnshop I manage we are prepared for this to happen. We have a monster sized can of 15 percent OC named Hades Blue (think its hot as hades LOL). One of us deploys the OC while the other covers with more a permanent solution. We have a good amount of gold jewelry and a flash mob would hurt us far more than that one hurt the 7-11. I used to carry a 2oz can of pepper spray on my gun belt but never replaced it after it accidentally went off.

There is a company that sells a fogger that will fill the entire store. Hit a button and the store is filled in seconds. Kinda sucks for cleanup but inventory is safe.
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