The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old October 26, 2011, 01:02 AM   #1
Sphawley
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 9, 2010
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 272
Employers Limitations On Weapons

I currently live in Las Vegas, NV and work in a large retail store, the area of my store seems to pretty nice area. However many a times we will run into some individuals of a questionable standard early in the morning or late at night. In the past few months I have been hearing of more home burgalaries, robberies, and cars be broken into and stolen. Whenever I see suspicious activity or a questionable indivdual I always follow procedure with metro and such.

Let me get to my point, my employer specifically states in their SOP (standard operating procedure) there are no weapons allowed on the premises at all. Not even a CCW weapon in youe vehicle. So what can you do in this type of situation? I always stay alert and aware of my surrondings but what if the situation presented itself where I needed to defend myself? Are there any viable options?

I do not currently have CCW but will in the near future. Not that I would be able to carry on the premise of work anyways. Anyone else have this issue?
Sphawley is offline  
Old October 26, 2011, 01:19 AM   #2
farmerboy
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 16, 2009
Location: Central Texas
Posts: 1,343
They can tell you to not carry I'n your vehicle but cannot enforce it.
farmerboy is offline  
Old October 26, 2011, 01:51 AM   #3
Crazy88Fingers
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2010
Location: Florida
Posts: 936
Check your state laws. In Florida an employer cannot legally prohibit you from storing a firearm in your vehicle. Regardless, many of them still do. As Farmerboy pointed out, prohibiting a firearm in your car, and enforcing that rule are two different things. Unless you've agreed to searches as a condition of your employment, your employer may not search you or your vehicle without your consent. Only an officer of the law may do so after establishing probable cause.

http://handgunlaw.us/states/nevada.pdf

Also, if car break-ins seem to be on the rise, you might want to reconsider storing a firearm in there. Or at least get a decent lock box and chain it to your seat.
__________________
"And I'm tellin' you son, well it ain't no fun, staring straight down a .44"
-Lynyrd Skynyrd
Crazy88Fingers is offline  
Old October 26, 2011, 02:41 AM   #4
BlackFeather
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 12, 2009
Location: West Coast
Posts: 450
For what reason should you need a firearm if they aren't shooting? Even then, shouldn't cover be the first option? Would there be people around that could be in danger if you missed?

If at your car and he has a knife, can you defend against his attacks long enough to get a gun out?

Just being the bad guy...

Also, would a knife be a viable tool you can carry, if not have you considered improvised weapons inside the store?
__________________
"Today is victory over yourself of yesterday; tomorrow is your victory over lesser men." - Miyamoto Musashi

[Insert random irrelevant religious quote here]
BlackFeather is offline  
Old October 26, 2011, 07:47 AM   #5
45Gunner
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 8, 2009
Location: Boca Raton, FL
Posts: 1,728
The OP states that many cars have been broken into and/or stolen. That would be incentive enough for me not to leave my gun in my car.

As far as taking the gun to work, even with a CCW, if the employer says it is verboten, leave it at home if you value your job. I don't agree with the philosophy but then again the employer did not consult with me when making the rules.

The best bet here is to exercise situational awareness, avoid questionable people/events and carry a cell phone.
__________________
45Gunner
May the Schwartz Be With You.
NRA Instructor
NRA Life Member
45Gunner is offline  
Old October 26, 2011, 08:14 AM   #6
farmerboy
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 16, 2009
Location: Central Texas
Posts: 1,343
Yes if your employer said not to then don't. Even if the store gets robbed and all the emplorers get either beat up or killed at least when it's over you'll still have your job and won't get crosses with emplorer.
farmerboy is offline  
Old October 26, 2011, 08:53 AM   #7
darkroommike
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 27, 2011
Location: western Iowa
Posts: 197
Remember two things:

1. Your workplace, including the parking lot, is private property and the owner of said property makes the rules. Keep in mind that if you draw to defend someone else's property it is not the same as defending your own property, at least not in all 50 states, and the employee handbooks are written back in the home office. I worked for a chain that had their headquarters in Texas but their roots are in California and the company that owns the chain is headquartered in France, so the carry rules that apply to all locations are rules that protect the company in the most restricted locations.

2. If you are carrying, and fire your weapon at work, your employer is liable for any collateral damage, e.g. bystanders shot, property damage, etc. and like it or not, not all gun owners are responsible individuals. Most companies prefer to hire outside security for that reason, all armed personnel trained to a specific standard and the armed security firms carry their own liability insurance.

Short answer then is their house, their rules, don't like your job move on, in this economy there will be a hundred guys in line the next day for your former paycheck.
darkroommike is offline  
Old October 26, 2011, 09:03 AM   #8
Brian Pfleuger
Staff
 
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Central, Southern NY, USA
Posts: 18,765
Follow the rules or don't take the job. Don't put integrity on the auction block.
Brian Pfleuger is offline  
Old October 26, 2011, 09:22 AM   #9
quepasakimosabe
Member
 
Join Date: October 10, 2011
Location: Camp Lejeune, NC
Posts: 79
rather be looking for a new job than dead...but alot can be said for that avoiding confrontaion is the best policy here, the likelyhood of you getting shot and killed at your store is low. but there is the whole id rather be tried by 12 than carried by 6...your call, id conceal and only use it to protect myself and nothing else. I wouldnt tell anyone obviously, and if it truly was self defense then not many people are going to argure when the video camera form the store shows you behind the counter and the gunman walks in brandishing a firearm. but then again im not a lawyer and or in your position. I work behind a vault door in an armory...im fairly safe from the outside, it the insde I have to watch.
__________________
To sum it up: Somewhere there is a TRUE BELIEVER training, he will not stop in his mission, he knows only the cause. What have you done today? For your brothers at arms, friends, family, your country, yourself?
quepasakimosabe is offline  
Old October 26, 2011, 10:02 AM   #10
brickeyee
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 29, 2004
Posts: 3,342
Quote:
They can tell you to not carry I'n your vehicle but cannot enforce it.
Have you ever had a job?

They can enforce it if their is not a state law preventing them.

"We need to search your car."

Answer no and you can then be fired.

Answer yes and have them find something prohibited and you can then be fired.

Is that enforceable enough?
brickeyee is offline  
Old October 26, 2011, 10:12 AM   #11
steveracer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 26, 2005
Location: Virginia
Posts: 123
Not to be the voice of dissent, but...

if it is not federal property, and you normally carry a concealed weapon for the defense of your life, what are you even bringing this up for? It's one thing to break THE LAW, but to break some BS WORKPLACE RULE is very different. When I worked in the civilian sector, I carried all the time, ignoring the rule the employer had about "no weapons". It's your LIFE. You can always get another job.
Let me ask you: If you were attacked in your workplace and you stabbed your armed attacker with a number two pencil, did you use a weapon?
steveracer is offline  
Old October 26, 2011, 10:15 AM   #12
brickeyee
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 29, 2004
Posts: 3,342
Quote:
to break some BS WORKPLACE RULE is very different.
Don't need your job?

You can be fired.

Wait till you try and get another job and then find out you have been fired.
brickeyee is offline  
Old October 26, 2011, 10:28 AM   #13
steveracer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 26, 2005
Location: Virginia
Posts: 123
Nobody should ever know

unless the situation is FAR more dire than my job being at stake. You are consciously decided that your personal self defense is less important than your job. I'm sad for you.
steveracer is offline  
Old October 26, 2011, 10:45 AM   #14
MJN77
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 27, 2009
Location: on a hill in West Virginia
Posts: 688
Quote:
Don't need your job?

You can be fired.

Wait till you try and get another job and then find out you have been fired.
On the bright side, you would still be alive so you could look for another job.
MJN77 is offline  
Old October 26, 2011, 11:03 AM   #15
steveracer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 26, 2005
Location: Virginia
Posts: 123
Precisely.
steveracer is offline  
Old October 26, 2011, 11:05 AM   #16
briandg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 4, 2010
Posts: 1,701
My advice would be to carry well concealed pepper spray, keep it absolutely secret, and be prepared to be fired if it is found out.

I openly carried a large knife on the job at any number of places I worked with, and it was never "noticed" despite a no weapons policy, because I was so bloody essential to the success of the company. A gun would have been a completely different thing.

A knife was better than nothing, pepper spray may have been better. If it had existed at the time, I may have had both.
briandg is offline  
Old October 26, 2011, 11:12 AM   #17
steveracer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 26, 2005
Location: Virginia
Posts: 123
I worked in a restaurant

in VA as a waiter. The company policy was "no weapons" and I carried a Colt Cobra in a smartcarry rig under the pants, shirt tucked in, no problems. I carried that way every shift all the time. I left under good terms. Weeks after I left the job, they were held up at gunpoint around closing time and the few employees there were locked in a walk-in cooler for a few hours before one of them got brave and kicked the wall apart enough to get out. The manager told me the story one day and I told her I carried a gun the entire time I worked there. She looked shocked, and then said, in a conspiratorial tone, "me, too."
She had been off the night of the incident in question.
I work on a Navy base, and of course cannot carry my personal weapons on base. If it were "policy" I would do it anyway, but it's "law".
steveracer is offline  
Old October 26, 2011, 11:31 AM   #18
aarondhgraham
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 1, 2009
Location: Stillwater, OKlahoma
Posts: 7,075
Do what you think is proper,,,

I work at a State University,,,
Weapons are prohibited except in your car.

My job is too good and the benefits too good to jeopardize that.

Statements such as,,,
Quote:
You are consciously decided that your personal self defense is less important than your job. I'm sad for you.
Are meaningless and should probably be ignored.

Providing income for a family ranks just as high as my personal safety.

I do know a few staff members and several faculty who choose to ignore the policy/state law,,,
They are putting their professional careers at stake by conscious choice.

What university is going to hire even a well-published research professor,,,
Who was fired for having a handgun on campus.

Many years back I probably saved a tenured faculty,,,
Her purse was sitting on the floor beside a desk,,,
Someone accidentally kicked her purse over,,,
A small semi-auto went scooting out.

I saw it before it quit sliding and threw my jacket on it,,,
Then I picked it up and quietly handed it back.

I have to give these people credit for their gumption,,,
But I also shake my head in bewilderment,,,
At the huge risk they take.

In this case, it's not just losing their job,,,
It's committing a felony.

Know what the law is,,,
Break it at your own peril.

Aarond
__________________
Caje: The coward dies a thousand times, the brave only once.
Kirby: That's about all it takes, ain't it?
Combat: "A Silent Cry"
Aarond is good,,, Aarond is wise,,, Always trust Aarond! (most of the time)
aarondhgraham is offline  
Old October 26, 2011, 11:37 AM   #19
steveracer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 26, 2005
Location: Virginia
Posts: 123
On campus carry is not a felony in most states

In fact, it's not even illegal in VA. I carry on campus every day when I pick my wife up at school. (she has a broken leg and can't drive)
An armed staff/student/member of the faculty could have stopped Cho from shooting dozens at VA Tech. 33 people died that day, care to tell us more about the enormous risks people take carrying guns?
steveracer is offline  
Old October 26, 2011, 12:14 PM   #20
aarondhgraham
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 1, 2009
Location: Stillwater, OKlahoma
Posts: 7,075
Hello steveracer,,,

Is it really true that in most states it isn't a felony to carry on a university campus?

In the states I have gone to college in (California, Oklahoma, Texas) it's a felony.

But the point of the statements in my previous post is about making a personal choice,,,
People can make up their own minds as to how much risk is acceptable for them.

Berating or chiding someone for not wanting to risk their job or risk a felony conviction is simply a boorish act.

Believe me, I want to have a handgun on my person where I work,,,
A student computer lab would be a prime choice for a shooter,,,
Practically every day I have thoughts about Virginia tech,,,
In this instance you're preaching to the choir.

But I worked too long and hard to get to the position I am in now,,,
I simply can't afford the risk to my income and retirement at this stage of my life.

Analyze the risks against the consequences,,,
Risk away if you want, that's your individual choice,,,
But no one should deride someone else who chooses not to.

Aarond
__________________
Caje: The coward dies a thousand times, the brave only once.
Kirby: That's about all it takes, ain't it?
Combat: "A Silent Cry"
Aarond is good,,, Aarond is wise,,, Always trust Aarond! (most of the time)
aarondhgraham is offline  
Old October 26, 2011, 12:14 PM   #21
farmerboy
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 16, 2009
Location: Central Texas
Posts: 1,343
Yall come on down to Texas, when you get hired on they give you uniforms and a 1911.
farmerboy is offline  
Old October 26, 2011, 12:19 PM   #22
briandg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 4, 2010
Posts: 1,701
what you fear the most is going to be the deciding factor. I don't know what I fear the most. The few times that I actually have carried a handgun on the job, there were genuine concerns that outweighed my fear of discharge under the slim chance that I used it while on duty.

It must also be considered that in general, my judgment should be second guessed at every step. I seem to very rarely make particularly sound decisions.
briandg is offline  
Old October 26, 2011, 12:19 PM   #23
steveracer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 26, 2005
Location: Virginia
Posts: 123
Aarond, I wish you well, I really do

I just can't wrap my head around choosing to be defenseless and having the penalty for getting "caught" be less severe than prison.
Best,
Steve
steveracer is offline  
Old October 26, 2011, 12:27 PM   #24
aarondhgraham
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 1, 2009
Location: Stillwater, OKlahoma
Posts: 7,075
Now we have common ground,,,

I never said I was defenseless or weaponless,,,
I just don't have a firearm at work.

Aarond
__________________
Caje: The coward dies a thousand times, the brave only once.
Kirby: That's about all it takes, ain't it?
Combat: "A Silent Cry"
Aarond is good,,, Aarond is wise,,, Always trust Aarond! (most of the time)
aarondhgraham is offline  
Old October 26, 2011, 12:29 PM   #25
briandg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 4, 2010
Posts: 1,701
Steve, consider this. Va tech happened once, in only 200 years at many hundreds of colleges, and millions of individual professors and billions of students survived every day of those centuries of education.

What are the chances of any one individual being gunned down by a colleague or student that is related solely to being on campus, and not based solely on outside influences, like an insane ex? Come on, they are astronomical.

What are the chances that a professor will be caught with a 1911 in his briefcase by an unsympathetic colleague?

I personally will take the incredibly small risk of being unarmed or under armed in the unbelievably low probability that an assassin may come looking for me.

I've dealt with the loss of my livelihood several times, and on at least one occasion, I still wish I'd been killed, instead of just losing my job. The loss of that job was the worst thing that ever happened to me, and seriously, given the choice of having either died or just lost the job, on any given day, it's still a tossup.
briandg is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:53 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.13268 seconds with 7 queries