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Old October 24, 2011, 10:10 PM   #26
M4BGRINGO
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Nothing stops Chuck!

If I was the one driving the car and trying to run-over a bad guy that pulls out a handgun I would be ducking while my foot is still on the floor. After the thump I would back-up and drive over him again. No thump then I keep going and get clear of him and his gun.

Now, if the bad guy is trying to run me over I am moving out of the way and hopefully behind something that he can't drive-through. If that isn't possible then the only other choice is to start running towards the car and jumping, but if the timing is off then adios................ Shooting at the car isn't going to do much unless it is far enough away that the driver ducks and gives me enough time to move aside and hope the driver doesn't come back up to see that I have moved.

I still like Chucks method best!
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Old October 24, 2011, 11:14 PM   #27
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I'm just wondering if you could claim self defense as the driver was seemingly wanting to cause harm or kill you.
You can claim anything you want. I think it would cost you a lot in the debate with the local DA, but you can certainly claim whatever you wish.

If you have time to draw a gun, I would think you have time for other action, like getting out of the way. If you know that some guy is trying to kill you by running over you, what did you do to instigate this ? If anything I doubt you could introduce lethal force.
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Old October 24, 2011, 11:28 PM   #28
secret_agent_man
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If you know that some guy is trying to kill you by running over you, what did you do to instigate this ?
Oh. how about caught a guy with paper on him like already engaged in a criminal act? That should do it.
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Old October 24, 2011, 11:28 PM   #29
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Do you always got to instigate something for something bad to happen to you? What does a woman do to instigate Rape? Or someone instigate murder or whatever. I believe I'n that scenario. You'd have every right to defend yourself. You say you should get out of the way? What if you can't make it, is it then your fault because you were too slow????
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Old October 25, 2011, 12:36 AM   #30
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policy

Many LE agencies have policy that prohibits using a firearm against a moving motor vehicle. The immediate effect of small arms, notably a single pistol, against a vehicle is moot. And you get into the entire fleeing felon legal issue, now a no-no, not so 40-50 yrs ago.

NOw, if the occupants or driver is using deadly force (aka a firearm most likely) you are in another, SLIGHTLY better situation. You are no longer shooting to stop the car, you are shooting at the suspect who is trying to shoot you. Oh yeah, don't shoot the kid in the car,........ and conclude all this in split seconds, to be reviewed by others for months.
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Old October 25, 2011, 02:13 AM   #31
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Well tonight I put this to the test. I shot and shot at the driver and just couldn't hit him. I decided to pull out my RPG and just blow up his car.

Oh I guess I should mention I was playing Battlefield 3. (Amazing game by the way.)
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Old October 25, 2011, 02:50 AM   #32
Glenn Dee
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You'd probably be held responsible for any damage the car did after you shot at it... even if you missed.


IMO Bama Ranger nailed it.
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Old October 25, 2011, 04:54 AM   #33
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would be more worried about moving out of the way, even if you HIT the driver he/she is still in a 2000lb+ moving car thats rolling at you. So moving out of the way is most important
Exactly what I would do and maybe while moving at record speed I might say a little prayer
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Old October 25, 2011, 07:32 AM   #34
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I can think of two scenarios where shooting the driver of a vehicle would be justified and the issue is not one of the shooter moving to escape harm rather than shooting:
1) In defense of another, where the shooter is shooting to stop the driver from proceeding to harm others and the shooter does not need to move to avoid the vehicle. For example, where a driver has driven through a crowd killing/harming some and is proceeding on towards another crowd to do more damage.
2) If the shooter can not move without increasing the risk of great bodily harm or death, yet is still at risk of either/both from the driver and his vehicle/weapon. For example, a person "A" is pinned behind marginal cover/concealment (a vehicle) by multiple shooters and one of that group of bad guys gets in a car and accelerates at the object providing concealment.

There are likely more scenarios that I can't think of at the moment. But where a shooter of a driver of a vehicle is claiming self-defense, justification seems tenuous at best if the shooter actually moved to avoid the vehicle in the course of events.
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Old October 25, 2011, 10:05 AM   #35
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If we shoot to stop the threat, it seems to be an extremely rare situation in which shooting at a car or truck could be reasonably expected to stop the threat. A handgun is the wrong tool for that job. I am in the "flapping feet" camp on this one.
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Old October 25, 2011, 01:32 PM   #36
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A gun mag article probably posted by Massad Ayoob had a case where a farmer his neighbor and son came up his driveway to find a crook walking to a truck making off with farmer's guns. Guy drove at them while rummaging in the satchel next to him. Farmer only had single shot 410. Side stepped and fired. At that range the shot hit together and gave a mortal wound. Truck crashed into a post towards the entrance of the driveway and crook died there. Justification for the shot was farmer didn't know if his neighbor or son were in the clear and with all the guns the crook had he could have driven farther away and stopped and open fire. Farmer would have been severely under gunned with 410. That's if my
Memory is "on" today though I say move first too then figure it out.
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Old October 25, 2011, 01:36 PM   #37
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Oh yeah and believe it or not the opposition in court tried to nit pick the angle at which the shot struck to define if he was shot in the back of head or not. I can't remember if wound was posterior a bit because crook flinched and turned head upon realization.
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Old October 25, 2011, 03:13 PM   #38
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I am also in the get out the way camp. I am old and slow, but the chance of stopping the car before it gets to me are small. Now if I'm being chased around a parking lot, after the first pass I may have to reevaluate.

Quote:
Quote:
Do you shoot them or do you just produce a gun and hope they stop?
You pull a gun, you better use it. If it's so serious you need to pull it, then deadly force is justified, IMO.
I see and hear this expressed all the time. "You pull a gun, you better use it," is a law suit or jail time waiting to happen. If pulling the weapon causes the attack to stop, what is the justification for shooting?
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Old October 25, 2011, 03:46 PM   #39
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But where a shooter of a driver of a vehicle is claiming self-defense, justification seems tenuous at best if the shooter actually moved to avoid the vehicle in the course of events.
How about when the shooter deliberately steps in front of a moving vehicle and then shoots and claims self defense? Or shoots through the side window after stepping out of the way and still claiming self defense?

It sounds like premeditation to me, but obviously I'm wrong; look up the Reverend Jonathan Ayers shooting in Georgia a year or two ago. It was ruled justified.

Last edited by zxcvbob; October 25, 2011 at 06:16 PM. Reason: Wrong first name
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Old October 26, 2011, 02:58 AM   #40
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farmerboy wrote:

Quote:
Do you always got to instigate something for something bad to happen to you? What does a woman do to instigate Rape? Or someone instigate murder or whatever. I believe I'n that scenario. You'd have every right to defend yourself. You say you should get out of the way? What if you can't make it, is it then your fault because you were too slow????
Geez Louise ... Is every man moving in the direction of a woman intent on rape ? Is every vehicle moving toward me intent on running me over ? Is every group of young people hanging out along my path intent on mugging me ?

There must be some tangible fact that supports that the illusion is really out to get you. Yes in most jurisdictions you have the right to defend yourself. In my jurisdiction it depends upon the opinion of my peers whether, or not, my action was reasonable under the circumstances and a reasonable person would be in fear of their life, or serious injury.

Facts, not illusions. Why do you think that other person is trying to kill you, or injure you ? It sounds to me like such a scenario could result in really bad results in time, money and future living arrangements.
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Old October 26, 2011, 07:40 AM   #41
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Let's see - jump out of the way vs. standing still and taking well aimed shots at a crazy guy trying to squash me with his car......

I guess it depends whether I'm carrying a gold Deagle or my LC9.....Gold Deagle, and the guy in the car is going down!
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Old October 26, 2011, 08:09 AM   #42
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motorcycle

Jumping out of the way is probably the right way to go, but don't expect it to be really easy or clean. I did face this type of situation when I was 18.Not with a gun and not a car.

I was crossing the street to get to a bus that was going to take our group to a restaurant. Suddenly this large motorcycle (Honda 650 as it turned out) piloted by a drunk (determined by police at the scene) came screaming around the corner. I saw him coming and ran like hell for the other side of the road. His reactions were a bit slow, so he turned where he thought I wasn't going - and instead turned and headed right for me. I saw I wasn't going to make it in that direction, so I spun around and headed the other way - for three steps. In the meantime, this dimwit's brain told him to turn the other way too - a second too late - and I saw that there was no way to avoid him. I jumped, almost made it, my left leg got clipped while I was in mid air, I flew about 10 feet and he wobbled to a stop about 50 yards further. My left leg was broken in two places, my back was sprained, and my shoulder and chest were badly bruised. I ended up spending over a week in the hospital (this was 40 years ago, so it was less unusual than now).

Lesson 1: This happened in less time than it took you to read this. All thoughts were in impressions rather than words.

Lesson 2: If I had jumped a second sooner, I would have avoided being hit, a second later and I would have been seriously injured or dead.

Lesson 3: I couldn't care less what you think you would do, it's all different when that screaming hunk of steel is right there.

Lesson 4: It changes your life. The ensuing post-trauma arthritis put an end to almost all of my sports - no more tennis, no more skiing, no more running; it's not fun when every step makes your ankle crack and sends shooting pains up your leg. Of course that also translates to pain on walking up hills, stairs, long distances on the flat. I've gutted it out for 40 years with only NSAIDs to keep things in check.

Lesson 5: Don't be an idiot, get out of the way as best you can, if you shoot the guy and just get clipped by the car, you'll still likely be paying for the incident for the rest of your life - and I don't mean court costs (see lesson 4).
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Old October 26, 2011, 10:36 AM   #43
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Getting out of the way seems to be the way to go, but I would argue you could be justified in shooting someone driving at you. I remember quite a few cops videos where the officer shoots at the driver of a fleeing car, sometimes when the officer is only walking up to the side of a car and IMO in no direct danger :-\
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Old October 26, 2011, 11:15 AM   #44
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Lesson 4: It changes your life.
Such an important lesson. There are so many life changing events, and maybe it's just my pessimistic nature, but there are probably more negative than positive. You know, sneezing hard with 120 pounds of fertilizersacks stacked on your shoulders is a life changer, and a whole lot more realistic than being run over by a tweaker.

Lesson #6: Bad men who are out to kill you are a much smaller threat than just poor judgement and/or fate. Consider the fool who thought parasailing during the prelude to a hurricane was going to be more fun than playing with whatever else he was used to playing with. he'd have been better off if he was hit by a tweeker in a smart car, and it was completely avoidable.
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Old October 26, 2011, 12:07 PM   #45
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I guess it all depends on where you live, what the laws are there, and what situation you find yourself at.

If there's a chance to move away from the car's trajectory, that's the first I'd do, but if I have to shoot I'd go for the driver first place. Wouldn't chance shots to wheels or engine.

We've had situations here where officers where charged by suspects driving vehicles, and either themselves or their partners shot the driver, mortally in some cases, and the shooting was declared justified. And we have strict use-of-force regulations on everything, especially firearms, so I don't see why it should be any worse in America, with better self-defense laws.
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Old October 26, 2011, 12:13 PM   #46
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If you read my post, the chief of police in a neighboring town was fired because he fired a .40 S&W through the windshied of an oncoming car as he stood in the path, after a long high speed chase. The car was spraying water and on it's last legs, so the chase was ending anyway, and that was the reason for disciplinary action.

The other example was a deputy sherrif who fired through the back window after a guy tried to pin him to a guard rail, I can't recall if he was prosecuted, but I believe he was fired.

Here, in america, you can't engage in any tactics that seem out of the ordinary without serious risk to career or possible imprisonment.

it's not a good situation being a cop here, as your actions are sometimes scrutinized down to the minutest details, and you are held to strict standards of hindsight.
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Old October 26, 2011, 12:22 PM   #47
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I dont know where all you live, I heard the last say "here in America" and everyone was fired. all LEO. Id have to say prob most of that is BS. They could have gotton rid of some not because of that but just because city council, mayor or some sort wanted them out. I can also name about 4-5 shootings in Texas in the county I live. all LEO shot through windows. One shot the man 9 times in the neck and none got reprimanded. Maybe its just where we all live is different. But to say all would be fired, thats just no so. And even if it was between my life and a car. Id make the car look like Bonnie and Clydes!!
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Old October 26, 2011, 12:36 PM   #48
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That almost sounds like you're calling me a liar. The events are true. your departments obviously work differently.

Keep in mind that a cop in florida shot a guy on a motorcycle that was bearing down on him, and that resulted in riots and burning.

People do not see a motor vehicle as a lethal weapon, and shooting a driver is not always acceptable to the people who have the power to stand in judgement with the ability of hindsight, and the power to discipline.

The chief of police was fired because of his judgement. He used a gun when it was obvious that the chase was already over, and by surviving, he proved conclusively that dodging the car worked. it was an unnecessary use of a weapon.
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Old October 26, 2011, 01:14 PM   #49
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4-5 shootings in Texas in the county I live. all LEO shot through windows
The Texas DPS virtually pioneered duty use of the 357 SIG. One of the main considerations was windshield penetration. The Harris County Sheriff's Office (Houston) is also notorious for windshield shots.


Quote:
by surviving, he proved conclusively that dodging the car worked
That does not equate legally to a hypothesis that use of the gun was unnecessary. It simply proves that dodging the car was a viable strategy. The cop was where he had a legal right to be, doing what he had a legal right to do. All that is necessary to justify the shoot is the injected presence of the threat of death or great bodily harm, providing the cop had no duty to retreat under the applicable state legal code. The hell with a departmental code some desk jockey wrote, which may have cost a cop his job but did not result in charges.



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strict standards of hindsight
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Old October 26, 2011, 01:21 PM   #50
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Stick around. I'm usually good for a few of them.

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