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Old April 13, 2014, 11:58 AM   #1
Doc Hoy
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Takarev from .223

Not that there is not enough Tokarev brass around, but I guess just for the fun of it....

I have begun cutting down .223 brass and re forming for Tokarev. I have not shot any of it yet, but eh cases measure and look right.

Question is......

Do I use small rifle primers (.223) or small pistol primers (Tokarev)?

Both fit in the head properly.
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Old April 13, 2014, 12:03 PM   #2
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I would start my load workup with small rifle primers, with CCI they are equivalent with small pistol magnum primers in terms of dimensions and priming compound.

If you get a lot of flyers or groups won't tighten up, then try regular small pistol primers to see if that gives a more consistent ignition.

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Old April 13, 2014, 01:55 PM   #3
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Sounds like....

I terms of chemical properties, and by that I mean, the properties which determine how intensely and how quickly the primer detonates or burns, there is no reason to suspect that one or the other might be dangerous in the round. Huh?
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Old April 13, 2014, 03:35 PM   #4
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Primers are not an issue if you develop the loads using them. But the volume of a 7.62×25 case isn't much, and if these shortened .223's are heavier than commercial 7.62×25 cases, there will be even less. This sort of volume is normally ignited with pistol primers. Rifle primers will make more gas which can unseat the bullets and make combustion less regular in the process. That probably won't be noticed in a pistol, but in rifles with small case capacity, like .22 Hornet, it can mess with accuracy. Also, rifle primer cups are typically thicker than pistol primer cups and can cause reliability issues with some handgun firing mechanisms.

Where I think I'd start is with small pistol standard primers for light to moderate loads, and small pistol magnum primers for working up full pressure loads, especially with spherical propellants.
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Old April 13, 2014, 08:32 PM   #5
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Unclenick,

I was looking at the velocity range for Tok loads and didn't feel comfortable recommending small pistol primers right off the bat, IIRC SAAMI max pressure is over 34k.

I think some of the issues with the 22 Hornet come from the powders used not being fast enough on the ignition to make a smooth pressure (as opposed to the least initial pressure variation German Salazar wrote about for Palma shooters), but a faster pistol powder should mitigate that somewhat in a pistol.

I could be wrong, but at least I've explained my reasoning.

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Old April 14, 2014, 11:27 AM   #6
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I'm not aware of a SAAMI spec., but the CIP has 2400 (34,809) bar in their drawing. By comparison, the 9mm is rated by SAAMI at 35,000 psi, and is fired with standard small pistol primers all the time. So I don't actually expect a blowout issue. But, except for 2400, a lot of the magnum pistol loads are done with spherical powders that benefit from a higher start pressure, so I suggested the magnum pistol primer for full pressure loads.

The Hornet seems to challenge handloaders. I think not only powder burn rate but the thin neck and light bullet weights involved all contribute to trouble building enough start pressure. A number of folks trying to solve the problem have reported precision gains switching to pistol primers in it, which is why I suspect unseating the bullet with primer pressure is also an issue. Typically, the velocity SD's go down when the improvement is observed, and that's an indirect indication pressure is starting to build with the bullet different distances off the lands. It would be useful to have pressure readings to correlate to it for further confirmation. You can generally spot the moment the bullet hits the lands on the traces.
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Old April 14, 2014, 12:24 PM   #7
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Unclenick,

That's good to know, somehow in my mind velocity is always linked to pressure so I get antsy when velocity starts getting higher than what I'm comfortable with from a pistol.

I'd love to see that data about the 22 Hornet as well. Strangely the 5.7 FN reloaders haven't complained too much about finicky handloads, although there aren't too many of them out there yet doing any precision work that I know of.

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Old April 14, 2014, 01:37 PM   #8
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Just for the sake of experimentation....

I tried some small rifle primers and small pistol primers in the "Tokarev/.223" and the pistol primers eeem to require less pressure to get them to seat in the case than the rifle primers.

Not a lot of difference but, I would say noticeable. Do I need to be concerned about pistol primers unseating upon discharge?
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Old April 14, 2014, 06:10 PM   #9
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Doc,

No, not until it happens at least.

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Old April 15, 2014, 07:19 AM   #10
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Tnx, Jimro....

Actually I am not certain why I am worrying about converting .223 brass into Tokarev rounds. Just something that seems worth looking into I guess. A very important part of shooting is the work I do in my shop to support it.

It is about like sailing. You spend about ten hours maintaining a sailboat for every hour of actual sailing. So that part of owning a sailboat has to be fun.

I am not a competition shooter, nor am I in any way a purist. So minor changes in MV or accuracy would not be much of a consideration to me.

But if I am getting ready to do something out of ignorance that is unsafe to either humans or to the firearm, I am thankful to know about it.

This is why I appreciate your response.
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Old April 15, 2014, 07:35 AM   #11
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I don't think your going to have any issues if you start at the bottom end load data and use your chrony. Once you start hitting the velocities you want, you're all good. You likely get there with a little less powder due to the case volume.

Also, remember that rifle primers are often harder and a smidge longer the pistol primesr. At least that was my experience with Large Rifle primers.
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Old April 15, 2014, 07:49 AM   #12
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The conversion worked great for me in the 70s. The only reason I quit is because the Tokarev ammo get real common and real cheap for a while. If I could find my old reloading logs, I could tell you what bullet I used and the powder type/charge.

They worked very well in my buddy's Mauser pistol and also in a Chicom Tokarev that I had at the time. Cases bulged slightly, but not enough to hurt anything or affect functioning.
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Old April 15, 2014, 11:35 AM   #13
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Two responses....

Savage,

Yes...Was going to start light and use a crony. I am not much of a shot and so accuracy problems will be more attributable to me than to the pistol or load.

Gyvel,

Do you remember what you used to ream the case mouth? I am using a drill bit (I think it is "N") It seems to work fine.

I have been able to come up with Tokarev ammunition, pretty much any time I want it. I have some berdan primed surplus and some PPU that is boxer primed.
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Old April 16, 2014, 01:21 AM   #14
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Quote:
Gyvel,

Do you remember what you used to ream the case mouth? I am using a drill bit (I think it is "N") It seems to work fine.
Lord! That's a good question. I guess, I'll just have to start a search for my reloading log and see my notes. I know I used something, but, after 40 years or so, I forgot what it was. I'm thinking I had some sort of case mouth reamer that eventually wore out and got tossed.
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Old April 16, 2014, 09:00 AM   #15
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Doc Hoy said:
Quote:
Do you remember what you used to ream the case mouth? I am using a drill bit (I think it is "N") It seems to work fine.
Case neck reamers and reamer dies are available, just expensive. The die keeps the neck from expanding while reaming. Doc have you fired any of the ones you drilled? Interested to see if you have any split necks. That would be a shame with all the work it took to cut and size them.
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Old April 16, 2014, 11:05 AM   #16
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Noel....

I have not had a chance to shoot anything from this pistol.

I can't find powder to use to reload anything.

First stuff I shoot will be the rounds you sent down. Muchos Gracias BTW.
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Old April 17, 2014, 01:34 AM   #17
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Doc, I found some of my notes (1975) about reloads:

Apparently I loaded:

110 gr FMJ, 4.5 gr Bullseye, WW 1 1/2-108 primers. (Notes: M1 carbine bullet.)

84 gr FMJ, 4.5 gr Bullseye, WW 1 1/2-108 primers. (Notes: Pulled original FMJ bullets from Finnish duds.)

93 gr cast lead RN, 5.1 gr Unique, WW 1 1/2-108 and RWS 4520 primers. (Notes: Mixed Boxer and Berdan primed brass.)

93 gr cast lead RN, 4.2 Bullseye, WW 1 1/2-108 primers. (Notes: Reformed .223 brass.) Unfortunately, no details about how I neck reamed them.

When I fired any reloads, if there was anything unusual about them, I would make additiional notes about them: I.e. "pressure signs," "very accurate, "underpowered," "didn't work action," etc.

I have no notes as to the performance of these loads, which means that they were all unremarkable with no problems.

My records end in July of '89 as I didn't do any reloading after that date. I guess I need to break out the old press and start over.
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Old April 17, 2014, 02:01 AM   #18
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Gyvel....

Many thanks....

Now if only I could find some Bullseye or Unique or 800X or anything for pistols.

I travel to the Tampa area of FL once per month and I called the LGS that I always visit when I am there. He has three pounds of powder I can use. It'll prolly be gone when I get there.
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Old April 17, 2014, 03:24 PM   #19
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Doc, Should I send some unique your way through my offspring railroad? I have a half can of the older stuff with the Hercules label, but it's fresh as new. Welcome to it if you want it. I kept some boxer primed nagant brass if you want that too. Say, trade for some hard lead ingots? I need them to cast some more ball mill media.
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Old April 17, 2014, 03:44 PM   #20
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Doc, you're welcome.

Since you are in the Tampa Bay area, you may want to check out Bill Jackson's Sporting Goods, 9501 US Highway 19 N, Pinellas Park, FL 33782
(727) 576-4169. They were a very large outfit when I lived there and they may have some powder that you need.
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Old April 17, 2014, 05:37 PM   #21
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Noel and Gyvel

Noel! That is a deal! Name your price. Forty pounds enough?

Gyvel,

That is a new one on me. I will give it a look.

Tnx,
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Old April 17, 2014, 06:57 PM   #22
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That'll work!!! PM coming
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Old April 17, 2014, 07:42 PM   #23
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Quote:
Gyvel,

That is a new one on me. I will give it a look.
And while you are on that side of the bay in "Pineapple Paradise" (Pinellas Park), check out Wain Roberts Firearms.
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Old April 20, 2014, 06:09 AM   #24
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Finally

Came up with a pound of 4756 at 27.00 from the LGS guy.

This guy has a nice shop. He is just a little vendor who is trying to cobble together a family business. Battlefield Guns and Ammo. He is not as established as the big guys because he does not have a good relationship with a gunsmith nor does he really have the capital to stock the shop as well as he could. Because of the Obama driven run on firearms and supplies, he is doing well. Shop expanding and is very close to a police and security training center.

He doesn't sell powder as a rule, but he sold me this pound of 4756 because he knows I have been having trouble finding pistol powder. I have bought three pistols from him so far and he appreciates the loyalty, I think.

If you get to SE Virginia, you might try giving him a look. Battlefield Boulevard in Chesapeake, VA just north of the drawbridge.
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