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Old October 20, 2011, 09:16 PM   #1
Ed Jaws
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No Win Situation?

A not too close acquaintance of mine was shot and killed along with a female friend by his soon to be ex-wife.

http://helenair.com/news/local/crime...cc4c002e0.html

This feels like a no win situation IMO, especially since the judge denied a temporary restraining order for him against his wife.

I suppose if you had prescience you'd known what to do before hand to save yourself and another person even though you might go to prison for a long time. We might be talking split seconds here.

Do you pull and fire to protect yourself, not knowing if she'll shoot, and possibly go to jail for a long, long time thinking the worst will happen and it doesn't, or hope for the best and lose your life? I personally don't know if he was carrying, so the point might be moot.

Your thoughts please?
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Old October 20, 2011, 09:51 PM   #2
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Of course, you pull and fire...

That is easy for me to say, as I have no skin in the game sitting here at this keyboard. It would have been a horrible position to be in by someone that you obviously love or at least loved at some point.

Terrible and tragic situation.
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Old October 20, 2011, 10:45 PM   #3
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From reading the article which you linked, it reported that there were two handguns founds at the crime scene. It reported that police observed upon entering the house; "They also observed two handguns and spent brass cartridges on the ground."

The woman arrested, Michelle Gable, had a gunshot wound to the arm.
Joseph Gable was alive when police arrived but died later. Sunday Bennett was found dead at the scene with a gunshot wound to the chest.

Perhaps Mr. Gable tried to defend himself by shooting Michelle Gabe, but failed to hit center of mass and only hit her arm.

In a chaotic, emotionally charged life and death situation, it is so difficult to make good decisions. I presume that a split second might have made a difference here, if Mr. Gable had earlier realized that he was in deadly danger and possessed the skill to deliver two shots to center of mass before he was incapacitated and mortally wounded (assuming he did shoot Michelle Gable in the arm).
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Old October 20, 2011, 11:25 PM   #4
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If this is the case I think it is, the judge was a woman so of course she denied the TRO to a husband. And why wouldn't she? Judges have absolute immunity when they screw up.
Quote:
Do you pull and fire to protect yourself, not knowing if she'll shoot
Yes, given the opportunity you shoot several times COM, without hesitation.
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Old October 21, 2011, 09:08 AM   #5
Don P
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Quote:
This feels like a no win situation IMO, especially since the judge denied a temporary restraining order for him against his wife.
As my wife has stated many a time the above is a waste of paper, time, and effort when issued. As the above situation played out, paper or no paper would not have changed the outcome and stopped the shooting with loss of life.
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Old October 21, 2011, 09:14 AM   #6
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Quote:
As my wife has stated many a time the above is a waste of paper, time, and effort when issued. As the above situation played out, paper or no paper would not have changed the outcome and stopped the shooting with loss of life.
But if he had successfully defended himself having a restraining order would have helped in proving self defense.
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Old October 21, 2011, 09:19 AM   #7
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Quote:
But if he had successfully defended himself having a restraining order would have helped in proving self defense
BUT HE DIDN'T so the point is mute and self defense is self defense and it would have been a justified shooting IF SHE WAS ARMED.
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Old October 21, 2011, 09:25 AM   #8
Chaz88
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Quote:
As my wife has stated many a time the above is a waste of paper, time, and effort when issued.
Then this is pointless comment as it relates to this situation.
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Seams like once we the people give what, at the time, seams like a reasonable inch and "they" take the unreasonable mile we can only get that mile back one inch at a time.

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Old October 21, 2011, 09:59 AM   #9
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If Mr. Gable would have successfully defended himself, there seems little doubt that it would be ruled justifiable. It would seem to me that even having applied for the restraining order would have helped his case; he could not be held responsible for it being opposed and denied, could he?
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Old October 21, 2011, 10:27 AM   #10
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I think this situation points to another means of defense... Seriously, remove the relationship properly before starting a new one. Just like avoiding "bad" parts of town at night, some things just up your risks.
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Old October 21, 2011, 11:43 AM   #11
Ed Jaws
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Yes, of course a piece of paper isn't going to protect you, and this woman was obviously disturbed. But when a judge denies the request and writes in her order "no personal danger or threat involved", it's hard to know the outcome of a self defense shooting if you shoot first. Especially since he said his wife "didn't have any firearms that he knew of" when requesting the court order.

Just speculation on my part but both firearms may in fact had been Mr. Gable's. His wife seemed to have no fear entering and going through his apartment.

Call me naive but if it was me, I'd have second thoughts shooting first and having to go though the legal system claiming self defense if both gun were mine. In this case, seconds count if I was, in fact, carrying in my home.

A few more facts:
http://www.therepublic.com/view/stor...lena-Shooting/

and a time line of events:
http://helenair.com/news/local/crime...cc4c002e0.html

It seems obvious Mr. Gable wanted to avoid a confrontation with his wife. Very sad and very senseless.

Quote:
I think this situation points to another means of defense... Seriously, remove the relationship properly before starting a new one. Just like avoiding "bad" parts of town at night, some things just up your risks.
Somehow I don't think this would have matter in this case since filing for divorce a few days before seemed to put the wife over the top.
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Old October 21, 2011, 11:56 AM   #12
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I could see where it would happen. Restraining order or not. Ex wife shows up, very upset etc. Suddenly she had a gun her hand, as has been stated many times on this forum trying to draw against someone who already has their weapon in their had is a losing game. Since it was his ex-wife he obviously knows her and believes he can talk her down and no shots fired. For whatever reason she decides to begin shooting, he takes a bullet or two then she turns her weapon on the girlfriend and husband draws and shoots. For someone to be able to even hit their attacker with one shot not center of mass after taking 2 bullets to the chest is a feat in itself. Perhaps he even realized that she was going to shoot and went for his weapon and being she already had hers ready she got off the first shot or two, before taking a non fatal wound to the arm. We may never know the full story. A very bad situation that became even worse. I am sorry for your loss.
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Old October 21, 2011, 12:19 PM   #13
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I agree 100% probably a no win. Had he shot and killed his soon to be ex wife, yes he would be alive but would probably of had his life torn apart by accusations and investigations that it was some sort of setup or scheme to kill her. ESPECIALLY being the man in this situation, it is 100% no win .

I watched my parents go through a messy ugly divorce and I must say, as a man if your ex wife SLIPS on a banana peel you had better have proof you never owned a banana and a good alibi.


Personally, I would rather be alive and left to rebuild my life after I was acquitted or live my days out in a prison wrongfully convicted than dead but that’s just me.

Quote:
and it would have been a justified shooting IF SHE WAS ARMED.
It would have, but you try to convince a judge and jury that your psycho ex wife came over armed and you had no other choice. While the procecutor talks about how you were a vicious violent evil husband who cheated on his wife, then hatched an elaborate scheme to kill her.

I have witnessed "the system" many times first hand and the system is designed to assume the woman is the victim and the man is the villain. A perfect example, once upon a time my mother slipped and fell in the kitchen. She busted her head open pretty good on the stone counter tops we had so we had to call 911. The police arrived on scene first, cuffed my father, refused to hear a word he had to say. They kept trying to get my mother to say he had pushed her or hit her, that it was ok to tell the truth etc. All the while not asking me (I was aboout 8) or my father a single question. Thankfully she was fine and after arriving at the hospital told the police my father had NOTHING to do with it.

Another thing, the story does not go into detail as to why the judge denied the request for a restraining order. I might get flamed for this but IMO had this been the other way around, a wife killed by her psycho ex husband and a system that "failed" to protect her this would be national news for days or weeks.

The real lesson here is the only protection from a life standpoint remains to be armed.

Last edited by Patriot86; October 21, 2011 at 12:26 PM.
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Old October 21, 2011, 01:24 PM   #14
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The incident happened inside a house. It was presumably one of the victim's home.
Keep your doors locked. It might not stop a determined assailant, but it will give you time to either arm yourself or retreat. It's also possible that the police will arrive before the assailant has broken in.
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Old October 21, 2011, 01:35 PM   #15
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Quote:
I have witnessed "the system" many times first hand and the system is designed to assume the woman is the victim and the man is the villain. A perfect example, once upon a time my mother slipped and fell in the kitchen. She busted her head open pretty good on the stone counter tops we had so we had to call 911. The police arrived on scene first, cuffed my father, refused to hear a word he had to say. They kept trying to get my mother to say he had pushed her or hit her, that it was ok to tell the truth etc. All the while not asking me (I was aboout 8) or my father a single question. Thankfully she was fine and after arriving at the hospital told the police my father had NOTHING to do with it.
Whenever I've had to take my wife or daughter to the emergency room (they call it "urgent care" now) for some minor emergency when the clinic is closed, the nurses at the check-in desk glare at me the whole time. I'm not imagining it.
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Old October 21, 2011, 02:44 PM   #16
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Quote:
Whenever I've had to take my wife or daughter to the emergency room (they call it "urgent care" now) for some minor emergency when the clinic is closed, the nurses at the check-in desk glare at me the whole time. I'm not imagining it
Man I had to take my wife in after she wrecked her dirt bike, the clutch lever tore off her finger. So I tell the nurse "thats what happens when you wag yer finger in my face" cops came.... had to explain I was joking, the wife told them what really happened... now she coulda went along and I would have gone to jail.

This situation is a tragedy but statistcally it usually is the man thet shoots the wife.

I really dont know how I would react if my wife was coming at me with a gun, now if I was messing around with another gal I would expect to get shot. Bottom line, stay true to the one you married until the divorce is final.
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Old October 21, 2011, 05:10 PM   #17
WANT A LCR 22LR
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"
Quote:
I think this situation points to another means of defense... Seriously, remove the relationship properly before starting a new one. Just like avoiding "bad" parts of town at night, some things just up your risks. "


I was going to type that exact thought.


Someones reply:

" Somehow I don't think this would have matter in this case since filing for divorce a few days before seemed to put the wife over the top. "


The actual filing of papers isn't the issue. It is that the guy had someone else in play for aparently a while and was still married. This is a major stupid move on his part and he was just asking for trouble. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

So, should he shoot or not? He set up the situation, it was up to him to follow through.
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Old October 21, 2011, 05:18 PM   #18
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First off, sorry someone in your life was murdered. Close or not close, that has to hit home. Second, yeah, he should have shot if he could.

If someone has a gun to me before I can react and draw mine, it has got to be a very fast judgement call as to whether I draw then or wait for a better opportunity.

The last time I was robbed at gunpoint, (I did not yet have a gun or ccw), if I had a gun and drew when the BG had his sites on me I would have been killed. He eventually put the gun back in his waistband and proceeded to look through my car. At the moment he put the gun away, I had free reign to pull an ar-15 if I had one.

If you are backed into a corner and there is no other way out, draw, shoot and pray the BG has bad aim.
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Old October 21, 2011, 07:34 PM   #19
Don P
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Quote:
I think this situation points to another means of defense... Seriously, remove the relationship properly before starting a new one. Just like avoiding "bad" parts of town at night, some things just up your risks.
I read the linked article and many a member have made some reaching assumptions. Yes we can possible read into some things about the hubbies personal life but no facts were disclosed in the linked article so it come down to maybe maybe maybe.
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Old October 21, 2011, 08:15 PM   #20
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If you honestly believe your life is in immediate and otherwise unavoidable danger, go ahead and defend yourself no matter how bad it will look. It's easier to get out of jail than out of the morgue.

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Old October 21, 2011, 09:31 PM   #21
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Whoa! Wait a minute, you people saying, in essence that the husband and his new girlfried being shot and killed is his fault because he didn't end the relationship properly is like blaming a woman for being raped because of the clothes she wore. Regardless of how he ended the relationship she had no presumed right to kill him and the girlfriend because she felt slighted and betrayed.

My ex-wife and I had a MOSTLY amicable divorce but she is not welcome inside my home and I am not welcome inside hers. In fact in the 3 years since our divorce she has been inside my house exactly one time and that was when our youngest son was staying at my house and was very sick. The only time I was ever in her home was when my youngest was moving in there, I helped him move some belongings in.

Be wary of exes, even amicable ones...
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Old October 21, 2011, 09:45 PM   #22
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Just because he was asking for it (or the drunk chick walking around downtown late at night in skimpy clothes carrying her shoes), doesn't mean they deserved what happened, and it doesn't lessen the guilt of the person that attacked them. It does mean they were asking for trouble, and maybe just to stupid or impaired to realize it at the time. Stupid happens to all of us sometimes.

I don't think anyone here has said she was justified in killing him.
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Old October 22, 2011, 01:19 PM   #23
Ed Jaws
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Thanks Nocturnus31 and Panfisher, It's been quite shocking to hear of his passing. He was one of the good guys.

To a couple of members that seemed to suggest that he would have avoided this situation had he gotten a divorce first, I respectfully disagree. Mrs. Gable was obviously disturbed mentally. Read the timeline article I posted. Even a friend of hers stated that she spoke with Michelle and was concerned for her mental health. They had been separated for over 2 years with her living in Maryland and him in Montana. This played out like a bad "B" movie with her professing her love for him, then shooting him.

I think DonP is right on both counts... a piece of paper would not have stopped her from shooting and we can't assume anything about his private life that wasn't in the articles. We can't even assume who's guns they were.

I also think Patriot86 expressed my belief better than I did in his post. Right or wrong, you can't count on self defense 100% of the time. No win, even if Joe defended himself and killed her in self defense, he'd have to live with that. Of course, PAX is right in her statement.

The other thing that bothers me is I don't carrying when at home. Yes, I'm careful if someone rings the doorbell and I've tried to drill this in my wife's head. Always be aware of your surroundings. Luckily I'm happily married and too old to have crazy ex girlfriends roaming around.

So let me ask this... how many of you carry in your home?
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Old October 22, 2011, 02:21 PM   #24
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I carry in my home. I carry everywhere I legally can.
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Old October 22, 2011, 05:52 PM   #25
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I don't carry all the time when I am at home, more often I will have a gun in easy reach.

To be honest, I guess I play it by feel. If I feel hinky I will carry or have a gun close by. If not I don't. Yeah, Yeah...I know I should have gun on me all the time.
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