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Old October 22, 2011, 06:21 PM   #26
briandg
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I can't imagine any way that this situation would have ended in anything but death or serious injury.

If an ex wife invaded my home with a weapon, castle doctrine would allow me to kill her in self defense. Simple.

There's no way I could have pulled the trigger first.

Once again, I encounter a situation that I would probably die because I would be unable or unwilling to take the necessary measures, or because I wasn't prepared enough to win a completely outrageous scenario that was almost like a lightning bolt from a blue sky.

You can't prepare for everything. Some decisions you can't make. There really are, far more often than I would like, no win scenarios that present themselves. This is one of them, unless you are cold enough to do what had to be done.
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Old October 22, 2011, 06:33 PM   #27
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Old October 23, 2011, 07:50 AM   #28
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Old October 23, 2011, 05:20 PM   #29
briandg
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So, are you trying to say better her than him, or what? I absolutely agree that she, being the aggressor, should have been the dead one.

Getting from point A, her barging in armed, and point B, her disarmed and neutralized without anyone (especially parties 2 and 3) being dead is complicated.

I'm serious, I don't think I could face someone I've known forever, lived with, loved at one time, and known without doubt that the only solution was killing her.

There is no gray area. She is armed and you are under the gun. You will have to fire first to save yourself, and you will not be able to just "wing her." You will have to fire for effect, and hope that she fails to get a round into you.

This really was a no win situation. If the guy had actually killed her, statistically, it's very likely that he would eventually have killed himself anyway. Maybe dying without "innocent" blood on my hands would be my best option.
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Old October 23, 2011, 06:50 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by my shoulderissore
I think this situation points to another means of defense... Seriously, remove the relationship properly before starting a new one. Just like avoiding "bad" parts of town at night, some things just up your risks.
This story has been discussed before, and I thought it was here. Perhaps I'm thinking of another forum. Anyhoo ... be sure to read the details, and you'll see that Mrs. Gable traveled halfway across the country to do in her soon-to-be ex. There was no question that the relationship was over. She just wanted revenge, and there's no way to predict when someone with that mindset will strike.
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Old October 23, 2011, 07:22 PM   #31
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" Whoa! Wait a minute, you people saying, in essence that the husband and his new girlfried being shot and killed is his fault because he didn't end the relationship properly is like blaming a woman for being raped because of the clothes she wore. Regardless of how he ended the relationship she had no presumed right to kill him and the girlfriend because she felt slighted and betrayed. "


We tell people to have good locks, lighting , alarms and such on their homes in order to minimize the chances of a break in. We also tell them " told you so, should have locked your door " when there is a break in.

Everyone has the duty to at least take basic steps in minimizing them becoming a victim. A woman wearing skimpy clothes and rubbing against every guy in a bar doesn't deserve to be raped, however she is sending the message " come and get me ", what would she expect the outcome to be?

Same goes for a guy that walks into a biker bar and starts talking about how he hates bikers then gets beat up. Sure he has 1st amendment rights of free speech and there are laws against beating people up but, are his actions appropriate or prudent?

Seperated is _married but living apart_ not free ticket to find another friend. Had he run the divorce route first, he might have been able to hide from the soon to be x. Still, there are not many defenses against someone determined to do real damage at any cost.
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Old October 23, 2011, 07:25 PM   #32
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Do you pull and fire to protect yourself, not knowing if she'll shoot, and possibly go to jail for a long, long time thinking the worst will happen and it doesn't, or hope for the best and lose your life? I personally don't know if he was carrying, so the point might be moot.
Why is it a moot point? Doesn't the question apply to members of the board with re: to what we might do with the assumption that we'd be armed?

When did a person known to be hostile, require that you hesitate and wait to see if they're going to shoot you with the gun they're approaching you with?

Seems like another "what would you do in a situation you couldn't possibly comprehend without being there" thread. We have plenty of time to second guess what should have been done to someone who had seconds, or even no time at all.

Just my thoughts on the matter.

Last edited by Nnobby45; October 23, 2011 at 07:32 PM.
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Old October 23, 2011, 07:46 PM   #33
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There's always lots of mentioning the importance of situational awareness. And yet there are few of us who aren't in condition white, or preoccupied with something that reqires our attention, MANY times during the course of a day.

Some of us are more aware than others, and we should strive to achieve as much awareness as possible. But unless we're trained body guards on the job, Secret Svc, experienced criminals on the run, a high alert situation, etc., our awareness has many vulnerabilities.

Last edited by Nnobby45; October 23, 2011 at 07:56 PM.
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Old October 23, 2011, 07:48 PM   #34
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yeah it would have been hard, but from what I read in the artical I would have had to at least try, there would have to be a record that he TRIED to get a R.O. and that would help
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Old October 23, 2011, 08:00 PM   #35
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dont mess around, with another woman, in a place where your wife can find you
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Old October 24, 2011, 04:48 PM   #36
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He knew she had issues, how could he not? Then to be seen with a new gal and a psychotic ex well seems like usding gasoline to put out a fire. I see folks do this crap all the time, get into a fight break up get a new playmate from local bar and the fireworks happen.

Had a gal shoot a 10 ga thru the back window of the bar at her husband was in there with a sleeze gal. Hit 10 or so people and hurt a few bad.

When you are married you are married no exceptio0ns till the Deevorce is a final thing till then.. use best judgement.
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Old October 24, 2011, 05:17 PM   #37
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I will agree, that his behaviors may have exacerbated the situation, encouraging what was apparently an already unstable pile of gray matter to the point that it tipped right out of the rocking chair.

Does that make it his fault, or prove that he deserved it, or any of the other bleeding heart nonsense that is going to be used in her defense?

heck no. All it shows is that he engaged in indiscreet and probably harmful activities that he probably shouldn't have been doing, and that it is almost certainly why both he and the other woman died.

If he hadn't been having the affair, the killing may not have taken place. One solid fact is that if the other woman wasn't there, she would be alive, so you at least have that...

The lesson to be learned is that tactical thinking can't start at the moment the perp pulls the gun. People ought to live their lives constantly wondering what their actions may trigger.

If he knew that his wife was already one cracker short of a package, would he have been openly boinking another woman? Maybe, maybe not, but it sure would not have hurt his situation to be more discreet.
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Old October 25, 2011, 09:04 AM   #38
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I never meant it was his fault, by the way... It's just a precaution, like locking your doors, having proper lighting, etc. Bad things happen, regardless. If you leave your front door unlocked, and lose your tv, stereo, computer, jewelry, to a thief, no, it's not your fault, but the preventative measure was not taken. They may have stolen your crap anyway, and you may have been out a window in that instance, but who knows... Best to lock the door.
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Old October 25, 2011, 02:43 PM   #39
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Does that make it his fault, or prove that he deserved it, or any of the other bleeding heart nonsense that is going to be used in her defense?
Nope, she shot him so she should be held accountable for it. But he might have used better judgement there. But maybe not, some crazy folk wouold go off just cause he sent the divorce papers so it might have saved one life but I bet the ex would still have gone after him, she is just plain crazy from what I read.

So do you shoot if the woman you had papers served on shows up at your place with a gun? Hard decision.
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Old October 25, 2011, 03:49 PM   #40
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I doubt that stuff will be used in her defense. She traveled a very long way to do what she did.

There was a similar thing that happened here localy a couple of years ago. Exceting that it was the husband, and he commited a home invasion. He killed the man, and shot his wife. Waited a couple of minutes and called his daughter. Then he hystericaly called 911. The wife lived by a miracle.

Strangely enough he was sentanced to 50 years. I seriously was angry with that verdict. He commited capital murder, and was conviced of volintary manslaugter. The only saving point was that he went to trial on the charge of attemted murder for the wife seperately. He was sentanced to 99 years for that one. So he will not be getting parole.
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Old October 25, 2011, 04:53 PM   #41
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I was just reminded last night of a case that happened when I was much younger. Guy attacked a femal hitchhiker with an axe, got off both of her arms, tossed her over a steep embankment and left her to die. I can't remember what he got, but it wasn't long. He probably alford plead to a lesser charge; she did, of course, survive the attack.

You just see so much disparity. People are at the mercy of the jury. If he had shot and killed her in SD, he may have spent more time in prison than she will for murdering them. You really never know.
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Old October 25, 2011, 08:19 PM   #42
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Seperated is _married but living apart_ not free ticket to find another friend. Had he run the divorce route first, he might have been able to hide from the soon to be x.
Since October is Domestic Violence Awareness Month, let's talk about the realities of domestic violence. Whenever a woman is killed by an abusive mate, the common response is, "Why didn't she just leave?" In this situation, where the man was the victim and the woman the abuser, a lot of people are asking, "Why didn't he just finalize the divorce first?"

It's not often that simple. The little-known fact is that the victim of an abusive mate is much, much more likely to be killed during the time immediately surrounding the breakup; at the issuance of restraining orders; and during the final divorce decree than at any other time. In other words, cutting ties is not just necessary -- it's also very risky. The victim needs a lot of support from the outside to make it work, and they typically go back to the abuser six or seven times before they are finally able to leave for good.

According to the DOJ:
  • In 2007 intimate partners committed 14% of all homicides in the U.S. The total estimated number of intimate partner homicide victims in 2007 was 2,340, including 1,640 females and 700 males.
  • Females made up 70% of victims killed by an intimate partner in 2007, a proportion that has changed very little since 1993.
  • Females were killed by intimate partners at twice the rate of males. In 2007 the rate of intimate partner homicide for females was 1.07 per 100,000 female residents compared to 0.47 per 100,000 male residents.
  • Between 1993 and 2007 the total number of homicide victims in the U.S. fell 31%, with a somewhat greater decline for females (-34%) than males (-30%). Homicide victims killed by intimate partners fell 29%, with a greater decline for males (-36%) than females (-26%).

Despite the fact that 30% of the victims of domestic violence homicides are male, people in our culture tend to think of DV as a women's issue. We don't have DV Shelters -- we have women's shelters. The Department of Justice division that deals with domestic violence is called the "Violence Against Women" division. The laws against domestic violence are marketed and sold to voters as being all about preventing violence against women. It's an inherently unfair situation and it makes the male victims of domestic violence much less likely to seek or to receive the help they need.

[Edited to correct and add the obvious: not all homicide victims are murder victims. A high percentage of those killed are in fact the abusers in the relationships. But that goes both directions.]

What it boils down to is that this man was entering a very, very dangerous phase of the relationship with the divorce moving forward. Statistically, he was less at risk before those papers were filed.

And that's one reason why DV victims don't "just leave" and it's why they so often have outsiders inserting themselves into the situation. They need those outsiders for financial and emotional support during a very dangerous time, and because domestic abusers are good at preventing their victims from building up resources (financial or emotional), the victims are are extremely unlikely to break free at all if they do not have that outside support.

When you have a stalker -- and victims of DV usually do have stalkers once they leave -- there really aren't any good choices that lead to an easy out. There are only bad choices and worse ones.

DV is the elephant in the living room when we talk about self defense for women, by the way. Even though 30% of DV homicide victims are male, that's still a very, very small number of people because around [40% of male murder victims are killed by people they know. That percentage is uglier for women: around 64% of female murder victims are killed by people they know, and around 35% are slain by intimate acquaintances.] Any woman who carries a gun to protect herself from violent crime really needs to grasp and grapple with this harsh reality. For a guy it might be a distant, unlikely possibility that he will face deadly violence from someone he has loved. For a woman it's a bit more likely than that.

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Last edited by pax; October 26, 2011 at 02:43 PM. Reason: Corrected the bracketed statistics in the final paragraph.
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Old October 25, 2011, 09:01 PM   #43
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This case highlights the impotence of both our police force and courts.

A very good reason to be willing and able to protect and defend ourselves.
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Old October 26, 2011, 07:59 AM   #44
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When I read this:

The dispatcher then heard Bennett saying, “Don’t you shoot me, b----. Don’t you dare. Don’t,” and then the caller appeared to have been shot.


I lost all sympathy I might have had for the husband. This was a situation that could have been avoided. I believe the man was abusing his wife. No man who is decent to his wife ever speaks like that to her. If a normal man was in this situation, he would have recognized problems with his wife - sought help or moved out long before it came to this. The bottom line is that this is not a tactical scenario that gun owners should be preparing themselves to address with firearms.
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Old October 26, 2011, 11:14 AM   #45
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Perhaps you should reread the article and the timeline. First of all it wasn't the husband that said those words, it was the other woman that was shot and killed. Secondly, they had been separated for over 2 years with her living in Maryland and him in Montana according to the request for a restraining order.

I don't know how you jumped to the conclusion he was abusing her.
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Old October 26, 2011, 01:49 PM   #46
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I misread it, I stand corrected.
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Old December 16, 2011, 12:18 PM   #47
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He knew she had issues, how could he not? Then to be seen with a new gal and a psychotic ex well seems like using gasoline to put out a fire. I see folks do this crap all the time, get into a fight break up get a new playmate from local bar and the fireworks happen.

I knew my wife for over 15 years before we married and didn't realise she had issues until we had been married for almost a year, had no idea what "Bipolar" was either, if I knew then what I know now........
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Old December 16, 2011, 01:03 PM   #48
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If you honestly believe your life is in immediate and otherwise unavoidable danger, go ahead and defend yourself no matter how bad it will look. It's easier to get out of jail than out of the morgue.
I would say such clarity of mind in such an emotionally charged issue would be a rare thing indeed. Because of this:
Quote:
Any woman who carries a gun to protect herself from violent crime really needs to grasp and grapple with this harsh reality. For a guy it might be a distant, unlikely possibility that he will face deadly violence from someone he has loved. For a woman it's a bit more likely than that.
Men do have stalkers, harassers and other issues from former relationships. Quite a bit really. However men differ in that they do not go to the police normally and when they do seek legal help they don't often get any help. Therefore it is under reported.
Quote:
No man who is decent to his wife ever speaks like that to her.
What about a crazy stalking soon to be ex-wife he had come thousands of miles to confront him with a gun?
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Old December 16, 2011, 03:03 PM   #49
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This feels like a no win situation IMO, especially since the judge denied a temporary restraining order for him against his wife.
It surely would have dissuaded the ex and stopped the bullets also.

It is a piece of paper.

Its value is lost on those willing to break the law by shooting a persons without just cause.

Murder and attempted murder are illegal also.
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Old December 16, 2011, 03:04 PM   #50
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Such involvements are never a win situation. But is no surprise these days.
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