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Old October 21, 2011, 10:50 PM   #51
briandg
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Farmer, it's the what-ifs that make it so hard.

You know, the stupid coyote should be asking himself "what if" all the time. Like, what if that bright light at the end of his acme instant tunnel is a train?

Stressfire and other combat training are all about getting you working on the what ifs before the really hard questions arise.

I never want to be in that situation. I haven't made a good decision since I was 10, it seems. I just know that if I ever use lethal force, that dark figure in the alley who just fired a gun at me will be just a teenage kid who has a toy gun and a firecracker.

If I don't fire, While I stand there wondering "what if it's just a kid with a cap gun," the genuinely evil escaped death row inmate will kill me and take my car.

There are times that I wonder if I'd not be much better off not carrying a gun. At least if I'm shot to death in a robbery, I won't wind up going to hell because I killed the mayor's teenage daughter accidentally instead of hitting the guy who was raping her.

I'm going to bed. Thinking this much makes my head hurt.
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Old October 22, 2011, 01:08 AM   #52
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read the whole thread and only once over a couple days

You are entitled to handle these situations the way you see fit. The same goes for someone who wants a weapon to open his door @ home and an infinite amount of other reasons. I personally feel it was unnecessary the way you handled it. You pretty much figured you had made a mistake and cut when you saw this man exiting his vehicle before he even appraoched you. This man had a reason to approach you, so the surprise factor is taken out. Another man(probabaly a starnger, maybe an acquaintance) smiled and/or smirked when the 1st driver looked at him as he left. This situation doesn't seem dangerous in the least bit. Again, I have no problem with the way you handled it. I do personally feel it was unnecessary though. I have also noted that the posters that are on the OP's side to include the OP are Adament that they are right without much flexibility. There is nothign wrong with people having varying opinions on this subject

I also am not going to be nice and kind to everyone and his brother just because I am carrying. This paragraph isn't directed to the OP. I just feel taht if the guy is being anal and overly aggressive I might say something to him. I really don't give a rat's behind if he or anyone else has a problem with it. No, I wouldn't escalate the situation or be confrontational. That doesn't mean I have to be lovey-dovey and nice to this guy because I have a firearm. If I am in a situation that is a threat than I would do my best to make 'peace' if you want to call it that. If I was in a situation that was a threat I would drive away and/or grab my firearm. You'd be surprised how quick something could happen before you do drive away. This situation didn't warrant driving away in my opinion, but I know what the man would've thought if you did that: coincidence or scumbag.
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Old October 22, 2011, 07:44 AM   #53
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Sir back talking to an enraged stranger with unknown motivesis not a good idea. Please re evaluate your attitude. For your own good. Throwing my gun in the back of the van and calling the guy an a--hole would not work.

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Old October 22, 2011, 07:53 AM   #54
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I see thoughtless, rude behavior defended by force of arms. HE may have been within his rights to shoot YOU if you presented your weapon.
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Old October 22, 2011, 08:23 AM   #55
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So let me see if I can summarize:

1) Guy inadvertently cuts line at an ATM
2) Other (large) guy yells at him for doing it
3) Guy who cut line says "I'm sorry" and moves out of the line

That about it? I left out some of the nuances, of course, but that's how a prosecutor would present it to a jury. Except for the part where 3) is replaced with "The defendant here murdered him with a handgun"

I don't think you're allowed to shoot a guy for yelling at you (or walking up to your car window) in any state in the nation...and that's all the guy did. This story is missing one crucial element that would take it into the realm of acceptable self-defence: the presence of a credible danger to life or safety. "Walking aggressively" may indeed be intimidating, but it's not the same as pulling a knife or punching out your car window.

Given all the information described in this thread so far, you most certainly did the right thing by not pulling a gun on him, since he didn't actually make a credible threat of physical violence. You can't assume all large hulking men are going to rip your limbs off any more than you can assume all scantily-dressed women know how to dance on a pole.

It sounds like you had plenty of time to start shooting if he had actually initiated an assault.
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Old October 22, 2011, 08:30 AM   #56
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Amd6547. In response to your comment. "He could be within his legal rights tp shoot me" if you were carrying wouild you seriously consider walking up to some one who may have made a mistake in traffic shout at them and then stare them down in an intimidating fashion for a significant amount of time. Your post must be a put on. Also I made a mistake in a confusing line situation and apologized in a polite fashion. Why can't some of you understand that? Also everyone doesn't read the part where AFTER I apoloogize nicely and say I am going to correct issue by going to back of line this "nut" starrs at me wildley and pi--ed off looking for a time after. I was thinking he wasn't going to accept kindness and apology and was maybe going to attack me. OVER A MISTAKE he somewhat caused by how he positioned his car. A point I didn't even mention in the verbal apoology!
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Old October 22, 2011, 08:56 AM   #57
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Pezo, Thanks for posting your story.
Lots of back and forth here. Plenty to think about.
In my opinion, you did fine. You are still in one piece and so is the guy that confronted you.
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Old October 22, 2011, 09:01 AM   #58
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I don't see rudeness on the part of the OP so much as an accident. If he were to deliberately cut into the ATM then that would be rudeness - and rudeness is inflammatory. If when he was approached in his car he yelled in his defense of that accident out of pride that would have been rudeness, and not the best idea.

So the OP made a mistake. I too wish that mistakes never happen but they do because we can not know/do everything. (nor can we be expected to) I'd say that the man who approached the OP's vehicle yelling did something unwise and put himself at risk in a way that didn't aid in accomplishing his goal (informing about cutting in line). Unless his goal included intimidation - which really shouldn't have been part of his goal.

So now what?
It's interesting to note that either of the two people involved could have de-escalated the situation In this case it was the OP who took a step to do so - and it's a good thing he did because the other person did not seem to have enough self control to do so. The OP left his pride behind which made a difference in his response. Here's what I mean. He could have said something like "Hey man back off! It was a mistake man so chill, seriously" - while not "wrong" that would have been rude and still inflammatory in the little jabs of disrespect.

We are going to be perceived as the "aggressors" by others or the "victim" by ourselves in a confrontation and before we get a chance to sort things out having someone de-escalate is a great thing to do in the mean time. Even better to do it yourself instead of wait for the other person or the authorities to do it. Married folks you know what I mean haha. It's the secular version of "showing grace"

Something to point out:

I read a post by another forum member directing me to a webpage about "predator behavior" which suggested we be on the look out for "abnormal" behaviors.

I consider it abnormal behavior to approach a stranger's driver side window following the side of the car (and no greeting along the way). Can you remember the last time you did that to a stranger? Or the last time someone has done that to you? - it's something like "hey can I get a dollar" or "your tire is flat" - either way not a common occurrence so some wariness is expected. I wasn't there so I don't know how close he got to the car door but a component of "getting in someone's face" is intimidation due to proximity. Why not speak from a few feet away from the window? What does being right up next to someone when yelling convey? - the possibility of physical intimidation/action - shoving, striking, making the other guy flinch.. or even opening a car door. People can be extremely impulsive. - the website was a good read and I wish I could put up a link for y'all. It had other abnormal behaviors and danger areas that I didn't previously think about.

Here's a crazy thought:
What would it have taken for the man approaching the van to be the one to de-escalate? I'm having a real hard time imagining that because it would require that he be in a completely different frame of mind. Who knows that could be us sometime if we don't watch it!

I don't mean to be waaay too far off topic but this really resembles the main culprit when my wife and I have a conflict. Inside my head I'd make an assumption that she did something deliberately. Note that the "yelling man" started with "DIDN'T YOU KNOW" rather than "hey I'm not sure if you knew but...."

Last edited by dyl; October 22, 2011 at 09:15 AM.
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Old October 22, 2011, 12:05 PM   #59
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At first it seems like the op is paranoid and over reacted but it's all about perception and what you feel are your abilities to defend yourself in a situation. If you're a physically big person you might not react the same as a smaller person would to a perceived threat. Maybe you have extensive hand to hand combat skills so size would not necessarily be a factor as opposed to someone who does not posses any defensive hand to hand skills.

I have been in very similar situations; in traffic or otherwise in my vehicle and someone is not paying attention or maybe I wasn't paying attention. I have not reacted the way the op did in his particular case but I'm a big guy with hand to hand skills so I perceive situation differently as do all of us. We all have different threat meters.

The op didn't brandish his weapon. He didn't act like a tough guy because he had a gun. He got out of a confrontation with words.

Why don't you wear your gun in a clip on holster or something? The carry setup in your vehicle is not tactically sound. The gun should be attached to you and not to your vehicle. Having the gun already in your hand, even just to get it out of site, is a potential accident waiting to happen IMHO.
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Old October 22, 2011, 12:19 PM   #60
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Bigkracker, good point on the "gun in the holster on something." I carry iwb appendix side. Sometimes when driving for distances I may clip it to the open counsel center compartment, if you're familiar with the dash area set up of a gm cargo van. I will re evaluate this though. Thank you for posting.
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Old October 22, 2011, 02:45 PM   #61
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What I find strange is that so many people accept completely that a large, dangerous looking person should find it necessary and acceptable to leave his car in this situation, go and yell at the driver whom he perceived to be a line cutter, and then, maintain an aggressive, taunting, challenging attitude, even after the first driver de-escalated the situation and promised to remedy it. He used aggressive and intimidating behavior in a totally inappropriate situation.

People like me, and apparently the OP, recognize that this is really, really, seriously screwed up behavior. and then, you open up the box of what ifs.

Do all of you skeptics really, seriously believe that there was no possibility that this person was packing, or so out of his mind that he COULDN'T POSSIBLY HAVE THOUGHT OF FURTHER ESCALATION, EVEN IN THE FACE OF CONCILIATORY ACTIONS ON THE LINE CUTTER'S PART?

This is the sort of behavior used in prisons during interactions with other killers, pimps, and rapists. Not between normal people who are part of a community of at least nominally civilized and polite people.

No matter how you guys try to minimize and sugar coat the behavior by the "big teddy bear" who had engaged in prosecutable behavior, the OP behaved correctly.

The situation scared him. He had a concealed weapon. He took necessary steps to prepare for the attack he thought may be coming, after reviewing the scenario presented to him. Then, he de-escalated the situation on his own.

All of you doubters who saw nothing in this situation but a guy who's had a rough day doing his civic duty by berating a line cutter need to just once put yourself in the cab of the van, in his mind, and re-assess the situation. Where you are sitting now, behind the keys, you have this god-like hindsight of what happened with third party knowledge of how it all turned out to be a perfectly harmless encounter.

That is not how to assess a defense situation. You'd get an F at the academy. You're responses are to be based on the information available to the target only. and he acted appropriately to the situation.


You guys would probably call my wife an idiot because she locks her doors anytime a pedestrian gets within 10 feet of the car. Every day, people encounter criminals in real life. Child molesters, killers, burglars, dope dealers, gang members, and only the grace of god prevents a dangerous situation from developing. That's why we carry firearms.
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Old October 22, 2011, 02:58 PM   #62
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And, every day, people act rudely and thoughtlessly...particularly behind the wheel af a vehicle...never a thought of the other humans around them, always in a hurry because their errand is more important than anyone else's.
Cutting each other off in traffic, cutting in line at the ATM, so self absorbed it never even occurs to them that they are even doing anything wrong.
Then, some, when called on it, prepare to shoot somebody...
The OP put himself in a situation where he offended and wronged several people.
Thats a fail in my book.
Glad nobody got hurt.
This seems to be the OP's second "incident"...I have carried since before CCW existed as a gov endorsed licensed right...30yrs...I have yet to draw my piece. That does not mean there were not times I was glad to be armed.
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Old October 22, 2011, 03:08 PM   #63
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Once again, excusing threatening behavior, and the wildly inappropriate actions on the part of an angry individual, with absolutely no insight whatsoever where it needed to be. In the cab of that van, where the only information was that a possible assailant had appeared for no explainable reason, and there was a concealed weapon carrier who did the right thing.

When they first installed roundabouts all over the area here and took out the 4 way stops, there was a lot of confusion. Funny thing, NOBODY took it into their heads to get out of their car and yell at other drivers because they were cut off.

This discusson is not about him accidentally line cutting and being rude. Not even relevant. It was a mistake, and it didn't merit this response. Get over it. This discussion is only about his response to a threatening situation. Whether or not to prepare for a possible attack.

Is this how you respond when someone screws up in traffic? is that why you believe that the confrontation was a simple matter of "he deserved it, because he was rude?"
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Old October 22, 2011, 03:49 PM   #64
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That is not how to assess a defense situation. You'd get an F at the academy. You're responses are to be based on the information available to the target only. and he acted appropriately to the situation.
I think a lot of us said that he acted appropriately, inasmuch as he didn't hose the guy and he verbally defused the situation. This is a case of all's well that ends well.

Having said that doesn't mean we can't also give additional commentary. I think his actions were just fine, but the way he presented the situation never made the guy sound like a deadly threat. There's a long way from "blowhard in a bank line" to "guy who tried to kill me" and it sounds like the guy didn't come close to the threshold of 'justifiable'.
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Old October 22, 2011, 06:20 PM   #65
youngunz4life
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read the original post again...

I don't see anything about a loud, yelling man angrily approaching the OP and causing a scene.

The guy said one line. besides that, an african american male stepped out of his vehicle and walked up to the OP to inform him he just cut several people. the OP had a problem with the way this man handled it. falls into the category of get over it. The OP assumed this person was very angry...really neither here nor there.

The little old lady, the middle aged mom, the 18yr old, choose another example here probably were happy that this man took it upon himself to notify the OP of what everyone else was thinking.
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Old October 22, 2011, 06:57 PM   #66
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I don't think you're allowed to shoot a guy for yelling at you (or walking up to your car window) in any state in the nation...and that's all the guy did.
You did read, right, that the OP not only didn't shoot, but he never even displayed his weapon? He merely placed the firearm where he could reach it easily if he needed it.

Quote:
it was the OP who took a step to [deescalate the situation] - and it's a good thing he did because the other person did not seem to have enough self control to do so.
Yep.

So you folks who are ready to crucify the OP, what would you have done differently? Have you never made an error behind the wheel or anywhere else? Do you think a large angry person approaching your car is no cause for concern? If so, how does this jive with the situational awareness that is preached on TFL so often? Would you have left your sidearm where it was, make it available but hidden as the OP did, or brandish it? Would you apologize and take a proper place in line, as the OP did, or leave the scene entirely, or tell off the other guy and jump the line deliberately? Are there other choices I haven't thought of? In a realistic list of possible actions, I can't see how the OP screwed up after he realized that he accidentally butted in a line.

The other guy was rude and hostile in a situation that he could have handled differently and much better. If you are going to act like that, you should hope that you get a response like that of the OP - after all, in the face of an aggressively rude person, he apologized and rectified his mistake. The only other thing OP did was go about his business armed for his own defense. Are we opposed to that?
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Old October 23, 2011, 01:10 AM   #67
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In my state, when I'm inside my car, it's the same as being in my home. If that man had come to my car yellin' or shooting his mouth off I would have felt threatened, too. IIRC, MI has castle doctrine, too and if that giant had threatened me I might have ventilated him from being in fear of my life or serious bodily injury. The line in the sand would have been him yanking the door open. You see, here that is the same as illegally entering a house. You can't even be arrested.

You might be surprised at how much more civil people have become since our 'castle doctrine' went into effect.

Last edited by billinmiss; October 23, 2011 at 01:16 AM.
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Old October 23, 2011, 01:44 AM   #68
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I agree with the OP. I am not going to sit there and get beaten to a pulp by someone who outweighs me by 200lbs when I did not even intend to "disrespect" them in any way. I would have tried to drive away, but failing that, if the man was acting in a threatening manner and forced open my door I would have shot him. The way I see it, it follows the same logic as an angry man forcing open the door to your house. Whether it is your home or your vehicle, he is not forcing open your door to give you a friendly hello. I would not feel good about having to shoot him, but I am not getting killed over an unintentional social slight.
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Old October 23, 2011, 02:14 AM   #69
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And we have another thread in the queue asking whether I would answer the door of my home with a gun in my hand after seeing a fedex truck outside.

Of course not.

The situation at hand, being approached at an atm by a stranger, appears to be a moderate threat risk.

A ringing doorbell is way down on the risk scale, but I'll still be assessing risks, just like I do when driving. once further intelligence has been gathered, I'll either answer the door, ignore the door, and possibly kill the guy on the porch because he broke down my door.

This all starts with looking out the door, and asking yourself, "am I in danger?" Not everybody hears the same answer.
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Old October 23, 2011, 05:24 AM   #70
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You did read, right, that the OP not only didn't shoot, but he never even displayed his weapon? He merely placed the firearm where he could reach it easily if he needed it.
He grabbed the revolver and held it in his right hand out of sight even before the guy got to his window, which was, in his opinion "calm and non-confrontational". Taking this action then caused a delay in leaving (the "stare down" period) because it's not too easy to start your vehicle with a revolver in your right hand.
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Old October 23, 2011, 05:43 AM   #71
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Some of the replies here made me downright nauseous.

Anybody that wouldn't have their pistol in their hand in that situation until they had extricated themselves from it deserves what they get.

The man had the chance of approaching Pezo and informing him in a civil manner that the other vehicles were a line. According to Pezo's story, he chose to do it in a threatening manner.

OKAY?

An aggressive individual approaching my vehicle for any reason is always considered a threat until proven otherwise.

Extension of your home. What's so difficult to comprehend about that for some people?

By the way Pezo, he was black. You don't know if he was american. That automatic "african american" is missplaced unless you know otherwise. That is the poison of political correctness.
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Old October 23, 2011, 08:38 AM   #72
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You did read, right, that the OP not only didn't shoot, but he never even displayed his weapon? He merely placed the firearm where he could reach it easily if he needed it.
Yes, I read that.

I also read that he referred to it as an "incident" in a firearms forum that focuses on self-defense. What, exactly defines an "incident"? To me it implies he thought he was on the verge of having to defend himself with said firearm.

I have my firearm where I can reach it easily at all times; does that mean I'm constantly having an "incident"? I don't think so.

Let me be clear on all these points:

1) The OP acted appropriately IMO. He verbally defused the situation and no shots were fire. Everybody wins.
2) It's OK to prepare for violence if you think it's coming your way. I don't fault the OP for having a gun within reach.
3) I do think it's tactically unsound to have to grab it to make it ready. That's an action that's designed to be preemptive but could turn out to be provocative if the other guy sees you doing it. Imagine a scenario where the approaching guy is walking toward the van and sees the OP with a gun in his hand, then imagine he is armed himself. I'm not certain where a verdict would fall if the approacher shot the OP and claimed "I was just going to tell him to move his van and he drew a gun on me!"
4) There's not a jury in the world that would rule 'walking aggressively' meets the threshold of justifiable homicide. This is the one area where I find fault with the whole scenario: this never rose to the level where it could be considered a self-defense scenario. It was never truly an "incident" in the strictly legal sense, even though I have little doubt that the approaching guy was purposefully trying to be physically intimidating.
5) I recognize the Disparity of Force element between the large angry man and the OP, but that's neutralized to some degree by the vehicle door between them.

If I found myself in the same situation as the OP my behavior would have been almost exactly the same with the exception that my gun would already have been in an accessible holster. And I probably would have found it quite unnerving because I just can't stand physical bullies. But I like to think that I would have solved the problem with words just like the OP did.

Don't confuse discussion with criticism. As I've said repeatedly, all's well that ends well.
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Old October 23, 2011, 08:43 AM   #73
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Quote:
Some of the replies here made me downright nauseous.

Anybody that wouldn't have their pistol in their hand in that situation until they had extricated themselves from it deserves what they get.


An aggressive individual approaching my vehicle for any reason is always considered a threat until proven otherwise.
He got what he deserved-a safe and uneventful trip home.

It's hard to drive your van out of the ATM line with your pistol in your hand, isn't it?

Just out of curiosity: how many times have you had to draw your gun because someone was approaching your vehicle in an aggressive manner? Ever driven in a big city where the bums try to wash your windshield for spare change? Are you seriously advocating drawing down on them?

I hope you never have to shoot anyone, but if you do you need to pray the prosecutor doesn't find out your FiringLine screen name and print out a ream of posts like this one. I can hear it now: "Ladies and gentlemen of the Grand Jury, this man sees the entire world as a threat and was predisposed to use his gun against anyone he perceived as threatening."

Last edited by Elkins45; October 23, 2011 at 08:51 AM.
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Old October 23, 2011, 08:59 AM   #74
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Going to the ATM doesn't just happen by surprise right? You decide to go to the ATM. You know ahead of time that you are going.

Isn't it prudent to don a bullet proof-proof outer jacket and a groin protecting apron before you go there?
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Old October 23, 2011, 09:02 AM   #75
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You know, C0untZer0, you're being funny... but my ex-wife had some idiots try to rob her at a drive-through ATM a few years back. Boxed her in with one vehicle, approached her from a second.

Beretta Brigadier 9mm convinced both vehicles to abandon the plan.

4Runner ground clearance let her take an over-the-curb route out of the lot.

Sometimes, capabilities come in very handy.
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